Intermat NCAA Tournament Projections

[mscoach57]

Intermat top 33 in each weight class projected to qualify for the NCAA Tournament in Detroit

WVU
125 Killian Cardinale
165 Peyton Hall
Non WVU wrestlers
157 Josh Humphreys Lehigh
197 Braxton Amos Wisconsin

They also have a category of Just Missed
WVU
141 Jeffrey Boyd
149 Luke Karam
285 Michael Wolfgram
Non WVU wrestlers Just Missed
157 John Martin Best Maryland


If we only qualify 2 it is going to be a long and frustrating season. Being positive maybe some of our Just Missed wrestlers break through as qualifiers. Losing Noah at 197 hurts. Losing Schmitt the previous year and Sullivan this year at 133 hurts. Being positive maybe true freshmen Jordan Titus or Garrett Lautzenheiser or Davin Rhoads can step in and qualify at 133. Why is Karam listed as starting at 149 over Roberts? When are wrestle offs? Some of our in state recruiting blunders are evident. No use looking backwards.

[Jon Perkins]

Fortunately what you were looking at was only "Projections". Even though the people at Intermat are very at rankings what they didn't figure into the equation was injuries, illnesses, bad weight cuts, burn out, true freshmen's, and just plain upsets. There are lots of things that can happen between now and the Big 12 tournament. Even though they have lost a couple of the better guys from last year the Mountaineers have a very solid team. I have been following them for several years and this team is one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time. They are fairly young but they are loaded with talent. They have 19 individual state champions, 8 of those being from WV, and the other 11 represent six different states. Which means they are getting better talent from all over and that has not happened since I have been following the team. The recruiting has vastly improved over what Henson brought to the table.

Intermat has Luke Karem as one of the guys to just qualify for the NCAA tournament, I will not make any predictions but I will say this kid is good. He has not wrestled much in college for whatever reason but he has the credentials to AA this year, do not sleep on him. As well as Michael Wolfgram, he was a Freshman last year and held how own all year. With some small adjustments and a little improvement he will be just fine, he is a good heavyweight.

As far as the "In-state recruiting blunders", not every WV wants to go to WVU. Of the WV kids you mentioned I heard it directly from one them that they had no desire to go to WVU. We all wish that the very best kids would stay in state but the reality is some of them just don't want to. Whether they don't mesh well with the coaches, they get more money somewhere else, or lord forbid they get a better education somewhere else. However a good way to eliminate some of these blunders, whether it is recruiting the top kids from WV, OH, or PA, is to donate to the program. Buy something to support the program, the RTC needs money to get the best kids they can get.

[Bearhugger]

Lets not forget Luke Martin who was at WVU.

[mscoach57]

Absolutely right. Not sure how I missed a D2 national champion who could have been at the 149 or 157.
Hate to say it but we might also wish we still had Delong and Jones as season wears on our upper weights.
Not much depth at some of our weights. We need to avoid COVID and injuries.

[Jon Perkins]

Luke Martin was there during Tim Flynn's first year. There was obviously an issue between Luke and the coaching staff or he would still be there.

Head coaches on the NCAA D-1 level are more like CEO's of a large companies, they have certain ways of doing things and they are not going to coddle anyone and sacrifice their proven winning ways. You are either a fit with the program or you are not, their job is to put the best team on the mat and to get winning results. If any individual does not fit well with the culture the coaching staff insists on then that particular wrestler will not get winning results and the team has to move on. I truly have no idea what the issue was with Luke and will not guess but he is obviously doing great where he is at and wish him nothing but good luck in the future.

If you guys want to point out kids that are no longer with the team why not mention the Moore brothers. Now granted they would both be graduated by now but they were both blue chip recruits brought in by Sammie Henson and neither one wrestled a match under coach Flynn. They were both off the team by December, I am guessing it is because they didn't fit the culture that coach Flynn insist that his wrestler's live by.

As far as the top end of the lineup you are correct, there is not much depth. The good news is they already have one hammer that is verbally committed for next year and I have been seeing on social media where they have had visits by several more hammers that would make nice additions. They are starting to get a lot more looks and interest from the top 100 - 150 recruits that they haven't had in a long time.

[mscoach57]

Touch a nerve? Sorry. I’m a WVU fan. Read my posts. I have defended Flynn many times.

“I am guessing it is because they didn't fit the culture that coach Flynn insist that his wrestler's live by.”
Are you sure that you want to compare the Henson and Flynn culture? Last year did not end well and it had nothing to do with any of the Moores or any wrestlers from Henson’s time. College kids are college kids. They’re going to make mistakes. Coach Flynn came in talking strong about cleaning house when wrestlers did not live up to his standard. He followed through when guys jumped off of the roof of a frat house and it made Barstool or drug tests were failed. But those were Henson’s guys so it was a little easier to send them packing. We learned last year that it is harder when it is his own recruits. For the record I am glad he kept the guys he kept and I support WVU financially under Turnbull Henson and Flynn.
We are allowed to support WVU and Coach Flynn while recognizing that our lineup could be stronger if we had a few of the WV guys who are succeeding elsewhere.

[Bearhugger]

Fortunately what you were looking at was only "Projections". Even though the people at Intermat are very at rankings what they didn't figure into the equation was injuries, illnesses, bad weight cuts, burn out, true freshmen's, and just plain upsets. There are lots of things that can happen between now and the Big 12 tournament. Even though they have lost a couple of the better guys from last year the Mountaineers have a very solid team. I have been following them for several years and this team is one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time. They are fairly young but they are loaded with talent. They have 19 individual state champions, 8 of those being from WV, and the other 11 represent six different states. Which means they are getting better talent from all over and that has not happened since I have been following the team. The recruiting has vastly improved over what Henson brought to the table.

Intermat has Luke Karem as one of the guys to just qualify for the NCAA tournament, I will not make any predictions but I will say this kid is good. He has not wrestled much in college for whatever reason but he has the credentials to AA this year, do not sleep on him. As well as Michael Wolfgram, he was a Freshman last year and held how own all year. With some small adjustments and a little improvement he will be just fine, he is a good heavyweight.

As far as the "In-state recruiting blunders", not every WV wants to go to WVU. Of the WV kids you mentioned I heard it directly from one them that they had no desire to go to WVU. We all wish that the very best kids would stay in state but the reality is some of them just don't want to. Whether they don't mesh well with the coaches, they get more money somewhere else, or lord forbid they get a better education somewhere else. However a good way to eliminate some of these blunders, whether it is recruiting the top kids from WV, OH, or PA, is to donate to the program. Buy something to support the program, the RTC needs money to get the best kids they can get.

I HOPE YOU ARE CORRECT IN THIS BEING WVU'S BEST TEAM!!!

However, as an honest observer, here are some "observations" that make me go Hmmmmm:

1. Noah Adams had TWO years of eligibility left. He was obviously more motivated to move on than stay and wrestle.

2. Luke Martin was on the team. He left, went to first your Fairmont State and won a D2 National title. MOW also. Many think if a wrestler is good enough to win a D2 national title, then they are good enough to "contribute" in D1. With good coaching in a good program, a D2 national champion very well could become a NCAA qualifier. Martin won his national title at 149. WVU didn't have a 149 in the Big 12 tournament.

3. Adams was discussed above. The other three NCAA qualifiers were also FIRST year wrestlers on WVU's team. This leads many to think that their "NCAA qualifying" skill and talent was brought with them to WVU rather than developed at WVU. If magic existed at WVU to help these three NCAA qualifiers in only one season, then many would expect some of the magic to spill over onto the rest of the team.

4. Sullivan came to WVU, qualified for the NCAA and then didn't return. WVU had four NCAA qualifiers. All four had eligibility to return. Two have returned. 50%.

5. The last I heard, Missouri was joining the Big 12. This doesn't give WVU a bunch of easy opponents to beat on. On the other hand, I figure it just gives WVU more obstacles to qualify for the NCAA.

6. If the problem is 80 to 99% of the team doesn't want to work hard and would rather party, then WVU needs to improve their recruiting methods.

7. If the team is working hard, then WVU needs to improve their retention methods.

8. The faces on the roster continue to change from season to season. It appears WVU has many 2, 3 or 4 year starters.

9. Coach Flynn and staff are more qualified than me. I recently heard the statement "Thoughts without evidence are delusion". With this being said, lets focus on the evidence and not deflect to my less than "100% positive ra ra go WVU statements".

10. It appears WVU will have many more new faces in the starting line up this season. What if this doesn't get the program back to four NCAA qualifiers???

11. GO PEYTON HALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This young man brought skill and talent TO WVU. I hope he continues to improve AT WVU.

[Bearhugger]

Luke Martin was there during Tim Flynn's first year. There was obviously an issue between Luke and the coaching staff or he would still be there.

Head coaches on the NCAA D-1 level are more like CEO's of a large companies, they have certain ways of doing things and they are not going to coddle anyone and sacrifice their proven winning ways. You are either a fit with the program or you are not, their job is to put the best team on the mat and to get winning results. If any individual does not fit well with the culture the coaching staff insists on then that particular wrestler will not get winning results and the team has to move on. I truly have no idea what the issue was with Luke and will not guess but he is obviously doing great where he is at and wish him nothing but good luck in the future.

If you guys want to point out kids that are no longer with the team why not mention the Moore brothers. Now granted they would both be graduated by now but they were both blue chip recruits brought in by Sammie Henson and neither one wrestled a match under coach Flynn. They were both off the team by December, I am guessing it is because they didn't fit the culture that coach Flynn insist that his wrestler's live by.

As far as the top end of the lineup you are correct, there is not much depth. The good news is they already have one hammer that is verbally committed for next year and I have been seeing on social media where they have had visits by several more hammers that would make nice additions. They are starting to get a lot more looks and interest from the top 100 - 150 recruits that they haven't had in a long time.

The lack of depth at the top end of the lineup COULD be a reason Adams chose to leave. Practice partners are needed. Despite how good the other wrestlers are from 184 and up, none of them were close to Adams' level. Rather than stockpiling 141s and 149s, another 184, 197 or 285 should have been grabbed. Now Adams is gone and there is a lack of depth on the upper end.

[Bearhugger]

Luke Martin was there during Tim Flynn's first year. There was obviously an issue between Luke and the coaching staff or he would still be there.

Head coaches on the NCAA D-1 level are more like CEO's of a large companies, they have certain ways of doing things and they are not going to coddle anyone and sacrifice their proven winning ways. You are either a fit with the program or you are not, their job is to put the best team on the mat and to get winning results. If any individual does not fit well with the culture the coaching staff insists on then that particular wrestler will not get winning results and the team has to move on. I truly have no idea what the issue was with Luke and will not guess but he is obviously doing great where he is at and wish him nothing but good luck in the future.

If you guys want to point out kids that are no longer with the team why not mention the Moore brothers. Now granted they would both be graduated by now but they were both blue chip recruits brought in by Sammie Henson and neither one wrestled a match under coach Flynn. They were both off the team by December, I am guessing it is because they didn't fit the culture that coach Flynn insist that his wrestler's live by.

As far as the top end of the lineup you are correct, there is not much depth. The good news is they already have one hammer that is verbally committed for next year and I have been seeing on social media where they have had visits by several more hammers that would make nice additions. They are starting to get a lot more looks and interest from the top 100 - 150 recruits that they haven't had in a long time.

I am going to mix in some facts with some "highly strong words on the street" to further discuss Luke Martin.

1. When Martin was a senior in high school, he began the season at 132. He competed at 132 at the Ironman tournament. I was there in attendance. The buzz going around was that Martin said he wasn't going 132 anymore. Quiocho was at 138 and weighing around 134. After Ironman, they swapped weight classes and both went on to win state titles.

2. The following year, Martin was at WVU and wrestled 141. I recall he had some significant wins and had some even more significant close losses. The word from parents of other significant WVU wrestlers was that Martin was doing well. We will classify these words as rumors to keep this discussion real. This same season, Rea was competing at 133 and having difficulty making weight. For the record, I like Rea!

3. The next season, Rea moves to 141. The super strong word on the street was that Flynn wanted Martin to go 133. To go 133 a season after competing at 141. Reference above where Martin struggled to make 132 TWO seasons before. Martin left the team. Martin resurfaces the next season at 149, wins a D2 National title.

I once worked worked for a well known company for 8 years. During those 8 years, the company changed CEOs FIVE times. With each change, the CEO brought in "his people". They talked a good game but didn't deliver. Those five CEO changes also brought changes at the General Manager level at the facility I worked at all 8 years. In 8 years, I worked under 9 different General Managers. Without a doubt, the most effective GM was ex-military. He came in, analyzed, twisted arms and drove continuous improvement with the EXISTING staff. Some staff tapped out, but the majority stayed, adapted and improvements were achieved. The best CEO's or GM's can make measurable improvements without changing every face in the organization.

My words mirror the thoughts of others I communicate with. We can all sit back and watch how this season unfolds.

1. More of Henson's recruits are gone, to include 3x NCAA qualifier and Big 12 champion Adams.

2. More of Flynn's recruits have infiltrated the line up to enhance the desired culture.

3. A new coach has been added that has world team significance.

4. Flynn and staff are in their fourth season.

WVU appears to be locked and loaded to deliver. Good luck.

[Bearhugger]

Luke Martin was there during Tim Flynn's first year. There was obviously an issue between Luke and the coaching staff or he would still be there.

Head coaches on the NCAA D-1 level are more like CEO's of a large companies, they have certain ways of doing things and they are not going to coddle anyone and sacrifice their proven winning ways. You are either a fit with the program or you are not, their job is to put the best team on the mat and to get winning results. If any individual does not fit well with the culture the coaching staff insists on then that particular wrestler will not get winning results and the team has to move on. I truly have no idea what the issue was with Luke and will not guess but he is obviously doing great where he is at and wish him nothing but good luck in the future.

If you guys want to point out kids that are no longer with the team why not mention the Moore brothers. Now granted they would both be graduated by now but they were both blue chip recruits brought in by Sammie Henson and neither one wrestled a match under coach Flynn. They were both off the team by December, I am guessing it is because they didn't fit the culture that coach Flynn insist that his wrestler's live by.

As far as the top end of the lineup you are correct, there is not much depth. The good news is they already have one hammer that is verbally committed for next year and I have been seeing on social media where they have had visits by several more hammers that would make nice additions. They are starting to get a lot more looks and interest from the top 100 - 150 recruits that they haven't had in a long time.

I am going to mix in some facts with some "highly strong words on the street" to further discuss Luke Martin.

1. When Martin was a senior in high school, he began the season at 132. He competed at 132 at the Ironman tournament. I was there in attendance. The buzz going around was that Martin said he wasn't going 132 anymore. Quiocho was at 138 and weighing around 134. After Ironman, they swapped weight classes and both went on to win state titles.

2. The following year, Martin was at WVU and wrestled 141. I recall he had some significant wins and had some even more significant close losses. The word from parents of other significant WVU wrestlers was that Martin was doing well. We will classify these words as rumors to keep this discussion real. This same season, Rea was competing at 133 and having difficulty making weight. For the record, I like Rea!

3. The next season, Rea moves to 141. The super strong word on the street was that Flynn wanted Martin to go 133. To go 133 a season after competing at 141. Reference above where Martin struggled to make 132 TWO seasons before. Martin left the team. Martin resurfaces the next season at 149, wins a D2 National title.

I once worked worked for a well known company for 8 years. During those 8 years, the company changed CEOs FIVE times. With each change, the CEO brought in "his people". They talked a good game but didn't deliver. Those five CEO changes also brought changes at the General Manager level at the facility I worked at all 8 years. In 8 years, I worked under 9 different General Managers. Without a doubt, the most effective GM was ex-military. He came in, analyzed, twisted arms and drove continuous improvement with the EXISTING staff. Some staff tapped out, but the majority stayed, adapted and improvements were achieved. The best CEO's or GM's can make measurable improvements without changing every face in the organization.

My words mirror the thoughts of others I communicate with. We can all sit back and watch how this season unfolds.

1. More of Henson's recruits are gone, to include 3x NCAA qualifier and Big 12 champion Adams.

2. More of Flynn's recruits have infiltrated the line up to enhance the desired culture.

3. A new coach has been added that has world team significance.

4. Flynn and staff are in their fourth season.

WVU appears to be locked and loaded to deliver. Good luck.

Another strong trait of a CEO is they have charisma and demonstrate knowledge. During the early and often "rough" changes, the majority hang around because the leader's knowledge and charisma serves as a magnet and makes people stay.

With a coaching staff of 4 and a starting lineup of 10, we have 2.5 wrestlers per coach. That is a lot of opportunity time for the coaches to tighten up the nuts and bolts.

[mscoach57]

What is acceptable for "one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time"?
All of Henson's recruits are gone. These are all Flynn's hand chosen wrestlers. This will be his 4th year as head of the Mountaineers, this is his program and he deserves our continued support but he also must be accountable.

21 years at Edinborough
150 NCAA Qualifiers (7 per year)
38 All Americans (1.8 per year)
11 NCAA Finalists (0.5 per year)
3 NCAA Champions
161 Individual Conference Champions
5 Top 10 Team Finishes
14 Top 20 Team Finishes
18 Top 25 Team Finishes


3 years at WVU
10 NCAA Qualifiers (3.3 per year)
2 All Americans including the 2020 AA's awarded by the Coaches Association based on seeding (0.67 per year)
0 NCAA Finalists
0 NCAA Champions
1 Individual Conference Champion (0.3 per year)
43rd place Team Finish in 2019
31st place Team Finish in 2021

What are the takeaways from the data? Flynn built a very good program in Edinborough. He has a better recruiting area, bigger budget, and better facilities at WVU. I am a looking forward kind of fan. Flynn supporters and apologists like myself will say the slow start can be blamed on Coach Flynn needing to get rid of Henson's recruits and bringing in his own. The slow start can also be blamed on Covid although every other school had to fight through the same or worse conditions. Stanford made the wrestlers practice OUTSIDE and they still found a way to get a national champion and finish 17th in 2021. A positive is that we jumped up 12 places from 2019 to 2021 at that rate going forward we will be 19th in the 2023 NCAA's and 7th in 2025.

If Intermat is correct and we have two qualifiers in 2022 then the program is going in the wrong direction. If Jon Perkins is correct and we have 5 or more then the program is going in the right direction. I want Jon Perkins to be right. Time will tell.

[Jon Perkins]

I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm that I have created. I never meant to ruffle feathers. The impression that I get from reading some of these posts is that when a WV kid does not end up wrestling for WVU or if they leave it is automatically the coaches fault. I guess I am on the other side of the argument and believe that more often than not the kid didn't want to go there in the first place or they didn't get recruited because the coaches don't believe they can compete at that level. And when the wrestlers leave it is because they just want to move on or he just simply does not like the rules. I guess the real truth lies somewhere in between. No matter the reason you both are correct acquisition and retention of top talent is critical, no matter what state they are from.

This team is going to take a few more years to build, when Tim took over at Edinboro he inherited a well built and established program from Bruce Baumgardner so success wasn't that hard to find. When he got to WVU the team needed a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up. Everyone was hoping that Sammie would do that but he was more interested in his own personal business than he was recruiting. (Word on the street is that when he left the RTC had next almost no money to even operate.) Consistent success has not been a great tradition with this program in that past but I think with fan support we can get it there with this coaching staff.

[Bearhugger]

What is acceptable for "one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time"?
All of Henson's recruits are gone. These are all Flynn's hand chosen wrestlers. This will be his 4th year as head of the Mountaineers, this is his program and he deserves our continued support but he also must be accountable.

21 years at Edinborough
150 NCAA Qualifiers (7 per year)
38 All Americans (1.8 per year)
11 NCAA Finalists (0.5 per year)
3 NCAA Champions
161 Individual Conference Champions
5 Top 10 Team Finishes
14 Top 20 Team Finishes
18 Top 25 Team Finishes


3 years at WVU
10 NCAA Qualifiers (3.3 per year)
2 All Americans including the 2020 AA's awarded by the Coaches Association based on seeding (0.67 per year)
0 NCAA Finalists
0 NCAA Champions
1 Individual Conference Champion (0.3 per year)
43rd place Team Finish in 2019
31st place Team Finish in 2021

What are the takeaways from the data? Flynn built a very good program in Edinborough. He has a better recruiting area, bigger budget, and better facilities at WVU. I am a looking forward kind of fan. Flynn supporters and apologists like myself will say the slow start can be blamed on Coach Flynn needing to get rid of Henson's recruits and bringing in his own. The slow start can also be blamed on Covid although every other school had to fight through the same or worse conditions. Stanford made the wrestlers practice OUTSIDE and they still found a way to get a national champion and finish 17th in 2021. A positive is that we jumped up 12 places from 2019 to 2021 at that rate going forward we will be 19th in the 2023 NCAA's and 7th in 2025.

If Intermat is correct and we have two qualifiers in 2022 then the program is going in the wrong direction. If Jon Perkins is correct and we have 5 or more then the program is going in the right direction. I want Jon Perkins to be right. Time will tell.

I like the way you worked the numbers to compare Edinboro to WVU. I wonder if having Bruce Baumgartner around helped any in recruiting? Who is WVU's Athletic Director? Whereas PA is suppose to be the hotbed for wrestling and Edinboro is a PA school, I wonder if Edinboro benefitted by grabbing PA wrestlers that didn't have the wherewithal to go outside of PA? WVU cannot use Covid as a factor because it pertained to all schools.

When you mentioned WVU being 7th in 2025, is that in the Big 12?

[mscoach57]

This team is going to take a few more years to build, when Tim took over at Edinboro he inherited a well built and established program from Bruce Baumgardner so success wasn't that hard to find. When he got to WVU the team needed a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up.

2021 31st 7th NQ R12 NQ 1 AA, 4 qualifiers
2020 NA NQ 1 qualifier
2019 43rd NQ NQ NQ NQ NQ 5 qualifiers
2018 30th 8th R16 R16 1 AA, 3 qualifiers
2017 57th NQ 1 qualifier
2016 47th R12 NQ NQ 3 qualifiers
2015 20th 2nd R16 NQ R16 1 AA, 4 qualifiers
2014 61st NQ NQ NQ NQ NQ 5 qualifiers

Coach Henson's stats are in red. It shows that he handed Coach Flynn a team that finished 30th at NCAA's with 1 All American and 2 in the Round of 16. The following year Coach Flynn took the team to 5 National Qualifiers (an improvement in quantity) but none of the qualifiers came anywhere near placing and the team finished 43rd (a decline in both categories). Your contention is that the delay in success is due to the state of the program when Coach Flynn took over. If you are going to say that Henson's final year was a program "that needs a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up", then isn't it fair to hold Coach Flynn to that same level of accountability if we only have 3 qualifiers and 1 All American this season? Your judgment of Henson is based upon year 4 results.

Your feelings about Henson aside. Looking at the team he was handed from Turnbull (5 national qualifiers, no one placed, team finished in 61st place) to a 20th place finish 4 qualifiers, one of whom was a national runner up. Looks like Sammie turned things around quickly and then it slipped back to an unacceptable level.



Statistics courtesy of wrestlestat.com
https://www.wrestlestat.com/team/76/wes ... ia/profile

[Bearhugger]

This team is going to take a few more years to build, when Tim took over at Edinboro he inherited a well built and established program from Bruce Baumgardner so success wasn't that hard to find. When he got to WVU the team needed a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up.

2021 31st 7th NQ R12 NQ 1 AA, 4 qualifiers
2020 NA NQ 1 qualifier
2019 43rd NQ NQ NQ NQ NQ 5 qualifiers
2018 30th 8th R16 R16 1 AA, 3 qualifiers
2017 57th NQ 1 qualifier
2016 47th R12 NQ NQ 3 qualifiers
2015 20th 2nd R16 NQ R16 1 AA, 4 qualifiers
2014 61st NQ NQ NQ NQ NQ 5 qualifiers

Coach Henson's stats are in red. It shows that he handed Coach Flynn a team that finished 30th at NCAA's with 1 All American and 2 in the Round of 16. The following year Coach Flynn took the team to 5 National Qualifiers (an improvement in quantity) but none of the qualifiers came anywhere near placing and the team finished 43rd (a decline in both categories). Your contention is that the delay in success is due to the state of the program when Coach Flynn took over. If you are going to say that Henson's final year was a program "that needs a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up", then isn't it fair to hold Coach Flynn to that same level of accountability if we only have 3 qualifiers and 1 All American this season? Your judgment of Henson is based upon year 4 results.

Your feelings about Henson aside. Looking at the team he was handed from Turnbull (5 national qualifiers, no one placed, team finished in 61st place) to a 20th place finish 4 qualifiers, one of whom was a national runner up. Looks like Sammie turned things around quickly and then it slipped back to an unacceptable level.



Statistics courtesy of wrestlestat.com
https://www.wrestlestat.com/team/76/wes ... ia/profile

The facts continue to come out and people do NOT like the facts.

[Bearhugger]

I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm that I have created. I never meant to ruffle feathers. The impression that I get from reading some of these posts is that when a WV kid does not end up wrestling for WVU or if they leave it is automatically the coaches fault. I guess I am on the other side of the argument and believe that more often than not the kid didn't want to go there in the first place or they didn't get recruited because the coaches don't believe they can compete at that level. And when the wrestlers leave it is because they just want to move on or he just simply does not like the rules. I guess the real truth lies somewhere in between. No matter the reason you both are correct acquisition and retention of top talent is critical, no matter what state they are from.

This team is going to take a few more years to build, when Tim took over at Edinboro he inherited a well built and established program from Bruce Baumgardner so success wasn't that hard to find. When he got to WVU the team needed a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up. Everyone was hoping that Sammie would do that but he was more interested in his own personal business than he was recruiting. (Word on the street is that when he left the RTC had next almost no money to even operate.) Consistent success has not been a great tradition with this program in that past but I think with fan support we can get it there with this coaching staff.

I put it a lot of time, effort and mileage to support WV wrestlers. However, few do well at the national tournaments. Just to be clear, I for one do not get upset when a WV wrestler leaves WVU. I also think that Luke Martin dropping to 133 was nuts. I have no data (body fat %, off season weight, etc) to support my hypothesis. I do have the two year history before the alleged request to go to 133 and the results after he left WVU. Its all history now.

[Bearhugger]

I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm that I have created. I never meant to ruffle feathers. The impression that I get from reading some of these posts is that when a WV kid does not end up wrestling for WVU or if they leave it is automatically the coaches fault. I guess I am on the other side of the argument and believe that more often than not the kid didn't want to go there in the first place or they didn't get recruited because the coaches don't believe they can compete at that level. And when the wrestlers leave it is because they just want to move on or he just simply does not like the rules. I guess the real truth lies somewhere in between. No matter the reason you both are correct acquisition and retention of top talent is critical, no matter what state they are from.

This team is going to take a few more years to build, when Tim took over at Edinboro he inherited a well built and established program from Bruce Baumgardner so success wasn't that hard to find. When he got to WVU the team needed a complete overhaul and rebuilt from the ground up. Everyone was hoping that Sammie would do that but he was more interested in his own personal business than he was recruiting. (Word on the street is that when he left the RTC had next almost no money to even operate.) Consistent success has not been a great tradition with this program in that past but I think with fan support we can get it there with this coaching staff.

I put it a lot of time, effort and mileage to support WV wrestlers. However, few do well at the national tournaments. Just to be clear, I for one do not get upset when a WV wrestler leaves WVU. I also think that Luke Martin dropping to 133 was nuts. I have no data (body fat %, off season weight, etc) to support my hypothesis. I do have the two year history before the alleged request to go to 133 and the results after he left WVU. Its all history now.

To add, Super 32 is coming up in less than one month. WV only has 16 entries in the boys' high school division. Some would and could argue that if a wrestler intends on wrestling D1, he should be entering tournaments like Super 32.

Amos, Hall, Best and Roberts are wrestling D1. They were nationally ranked multiple years in high school and they all hit Super 32 many times each.

[Jon Perkins]

At face value it looks like Sammy's numbers are pretty good. In his four years he had two All-American finishes by the same wrestler, Zeke Moisey. Does that count as two AA's or just one? The sounds like a different thread. The one person that made it to the round of 12 was Dylan Cottrell, yeah he was pretty good too. The round of 16 finishes are ok I guess, but they just are not that impressive to me, it means you won two matches. And yes, Sammy's first recruiting year was a smash hit. It was a top 5 class in the nation that year. But he didn't do anything with it, most of those high school All-Americans he recruited ended up like Dom Bradley and Tyler Caldwell, quitting and going somewhere else. My point about Sammy is that even though he did some success with a hand full of guys the team didn't have any depth to it.

With Coach Flynn he is entering his fourth year and he has two All-American finishers by two different wrestlers and a round of 12 finisher by a true freshman. This to me shows the team has, or is starting to get, some depth to it. No Coach Flynn did not have a great recruiting class his first year or even two, but with those solid finishes by multiple wrestlers business is starting to pick up.

When I said the team needed an overhaul that is what I was referring to, they had no depth. Once you got past the starting lineup there was no ne else on the team that could compete at a national level.

[Bearhugger]

At face value it looks like Sammy's numbers are pretty good. In his four years he had two All-American finishes by the same wrestler, Zeke Moisey. Does that count as two AA's or just one? The sounds like a different thread. The one person that made it to the round of 12 was Dylan Cottrell, yeah he was pretty good too. The round of 16 finishes are ok I guess, but they just are not that impressive to me, it means you won two matches. And yes, Sammy's first recruiting year was a smash hit. It was a top 5 class in the nation that year. But he didn't do anything with it, most of those high school All-Americans he recruited ended up like Dom Bradley and Tyler Caldwell, quitting and going somewhere else. My point about Sammy is that even though he did some success with a hand full of guys the team didn't have any depth to it.

With Coach Flynn he is entering his fourth year and he has two All-American finishers by two different wrestlers and a round of 12 finisher by a true freshman. This to me shows the team has, or is starting to get, some depth to it. No Coach Flynn did not have a great recruiting class his first year or even two, but with those solid finishes by multiple wrestlers business is starting to pick up.

When I said the team needed an overhaul that is what I was referring to, they had no depth. Once you got past the starting lineup there was no ne else on the team that could compete at a national level.

A few points:

1. Henson's top 5 recruiting class has been analyzed in previous years. Although I didn't do the research, the word on the street was that many of those Top 5 recruiting class wrestlers that left WVU did not end up wrestling D1 elsewhere. This could be wrong, but it was communicated by people who claimed to look the wrestlers up.

2. Flynn's "depth" has yet to be proven.

3. The bottom line is WVU has not really made any noteworthy progress in approximately 7 seasons.

[Jon Perkins]

Not making any noteworthy progress in 7 years is kind of what I thought this whole thing was about. It has been much longer than 7 years since they have made any noteworthy progress, but at least now I think the program is going the right direction. Is the team going to make a huge splash at the national tournament? No, not in the next few years but they will have a couple of guys do very well and show everyone that this is finally a team that can compete and should be taken serious.

It was said in this thread that the bottom 2/3's of the lineup was heavily recruited and not so much at the top end, that is ok with me. That is building depth and a competitive practice room for those areas, they can work on the top of the lineup the next year or two. To build a team that can finish top 5 in the NCAA tournament takes years to build. Look at how long it took Tom Ryan at Ohio State and Mark Branch out in Wyoming. The fastest way to build the team and to see noteworthy progress is to gather a supportive fan base.

[mscoach57]

And yes, Sammy's first recruiting year was a smash hit. It was a top 5 class in the nation that year. But he didn't do anything with it, most of those high school All-Americans he recruited ended up like Dom Bradley and Tyler Caldwell, quitting and going somewhere else.

For someone who claims to be a longtime WVU wrestling fan you don't seem to remember very well. Caldwell and Bradley came here as volunteer assistant coaches and trained with the RTC. Caldwell graduated from Oklahoma State and Bradley graduated from Missouri. I can tell from some of your earlier comments that you don't know much about the RTC but come on dude.

[Jon Perkins]

I never said I was a long time fan of WVU, I did not follow them under the supervision of Turnbull. I did not like his style. I am very aware of where both Tyler Caldwell and Dom Bradley came from. Sammy recruited Caldwell when he was coaching at Oklahoma and when he left for Missouri Tyler left for Okie State. Dom Bradley and Nick Marabel both wrestled under Sammy when he was at Missouri. They both came to be the Volunteer Assistant Coach and to train at the RTC because they were familiar with Sammy. Both of them only made one year, I am guessing if they were happy with the environment they were in and the leadership they were under, that each of them might have made it more than one year.

I have heard from a fairly reliable source that Tyler left because he wasn't happy with Sammy being more interested in Bull Trained then recruiting the best kids possible. So he left and went directly back down to Okie State and joined their coaching staff. I have heard nothing why Bradley left. If he would have been satisfied he wouldn't have left to go to another RTC and eventually take another Volunteer Assistant job.

The both of them quitting is the exact reason why the biggest part of his No. 5 recruiting class quit. The head coach was not paying enough attention to the team. And yes some of them did go to D2 schools, some just quit all together, but there were a few that did go to other D1 colleges. Conner Flinn was one and there was a heavyweight from KY, they both went to Missouri and did fairly well. And if I am not mistaken another recruit from OH transferred to Duke and made the starting lineup.

And furthermore I know enough about the RTC to know that it is not only for guys to train for freestyle. It plays a very pivotal role in recruiting and it is good way make up money a kid doesn't get through a scholarship. So the more money an RTC has on hand the better talent that is going to come their way, hence Penn State. They have an enormous amount of money so I am sure the majority of their athletes are not paying much if anything to go to school. As where a smaller RTC with a very limited budget can only afford to give the athletes a smaller percentage of scholarship money. Which is why some kids go else where, because they get more money. I understand there is a lot more ways to get kids money but the RTC is a good one.

[mscoach57]

I never said I was a long time fan of WVU, I did not follow them under the supervision of Turnbull. I did not like his style.
Less than a week ago you said "I have been following them for several years and this team is one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time". So several years and quite some time does not equal a long time? OK. You did not like Turnbull, you did not like Henson, but Flynn is your guy? Good. I like him too. I hope he and WVU exceed expectations.

but there were a few that did go to other D1 colleges. Conner Flinn was one and there was a heavyweight from KY, they both went to Missouri and did fairly well.
Austin Meyers? 4x state champ from Kentucky? He did "fairly well"?
15-16 redshirted at wvu and went 21-8
16-17 Transferred started for Missouri and went 15-15, qualified for NCAA tournament and went 0-2
17-18 12-8 Did not qualify for NCAA
18-19 3-0 in opens but did not make the starting lineup
20-21 1-2 in reserve matches but did not make the starting lineup

Are you the same guy who said this about Henson's WVU wrestlers, "The round of 16 finishes are ok I guess, but they just are not that impressive to me, it means you won two matches"? So winning 2 matches is "not impressive" but going 0-2 once out of 4 years js "doing fairly well"?You're either blinded by your love of Flynn or your hate of Henson, maybe both

And furthermore I know enough about the RTC to know that it is not only for guys to train for freestyle. True, RTC's can and should teach Freestyle and Greco Roman but folkstyle is not allowed. I hope that Muhamed will bring some Greco as it appears to be our best style It plays a very pivotal role in recruiting True and it is good way make up money a kid doesn't get through a scholarship. False, illegal and a great way to lose individual eligibility and get a program on probation. So the more money an RTC has on hand the better talent that is going to come their way, hence Penn State. They attract and pay post graduates like Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, Gilman, etc The RTC does not pay RBY, Brooks, Lee, etc. RTC's are not a financial advantage for undergrads but the supply of paid training partners is a huge attraction. I think you are confusing RTC's with this summer's NIL changes that allow athletes to get paid by businesses but not RTC's. They have an enormous amount of money so I am sure the majority of their athletes are not paying much if anything to go to school. Again, lets do it slowly, Penn State gets 9.9 scholarships to distribute among its roster just like WVU and all fully funded programs. The RTC cannot contribute any money to a college athlete. The RTC can reimburse college athletes for summer freestyle and greco travel expenses. Penn State maximizes money by using the ROTC programs for the wrestlers who are willing to make a post graduate commitment to the military. Is it possible that you are confused because RTC and ROTC have many of the same letters? As where a smaller RTC with a very limited budget can only afford to give the athletes a smaller percentage of scholarship money. If the smaller RTC is giving any money then the Smaller RTC is is huge trouble. Which is why some kids go else where, because they get more money. Name one. Be careful though, you're about to publicly accuse an athlete and a school of a major rules infraction. I understand there is a lot more ways to get kids money but the RTC is a good one. NIL is a better and legal one.

I assume you know that unless covid exceptions are extended, USA Wrestling traditionally requires freestyle or greco roman success in age group or senior level tournaments for college athletes to even be eligible to participate in the RTC. FYI, using the information on the WVU wrestling site it appears that under the traditional rules, an eye popping 5 of the 32 members of the Tim Flynn recruited WVU roster is eligible to be in the RTC.

The new coach is eligible Muhamed McBryde is eligible as a u23 champ

Amburgy No
Blumer No
Boyd No
Boyers No
Bradbury Yes Fargo 2018 Cadet Freestyle 4th place
Cardinale Yes Fargo All American
Carman No
Cicciarelli No
D'Alesio No
Daum No
Dowling No
Drousias No
Hall No
Heard No
Hornfeck No
Joll No
Karam No
Lautzenheiser No
Levans No
Mileto No
Moomau No
Myers No
Nadeau No
Rea No
Rhoads Yes Fargo Greco Roman Champion
Roberts Yes Fargo Greco Roman Champion and Greco Age group World Team Trials
Robin No
Schafer No
Seibert No
Titus Yes Fargo 6th Place
Wickersham No
Wolfgram No

The most successful wrestlers on the roster have been in the Greco style. It has been mentioned on here before that the coaches will not allow the wrestlers to train or compete in Greco. I can't vouch for the truth of that statement but it does seem to be supported with the departure of Schmitt and none of the wrestlers at junior trials competing in greco.

[Diamond]

Coach Flynn is doing a great job. Losing Adams and Sullivan are major hits. What Sam Henson did or who participates in Greco Roman wrestling are non factors in the success of WVU wrestling this season. What did I just read? Pssshhh!!!

[mscoach57]

I agree the loss of Noah and Sullivan hurts. Noah was the last of the Henson guys so you are right Henson is in the past and does not affect the results of this team. I agree with you that it is time for our coaches and fan base to have stop blaming the past. Accountability can be tricky.
I don’t care if we have Greco or not. Someone mentioned the importance of the RTC I was just pointing out that we do not have many wrestlers who qualify to use or practice at the RTC and of the guys who are eligible for RTC it looks the success was in Greco. Other than watching Braxton this summer I haven’t watched much Greco so please don’t think I am saying Greco is the savior of our program.
I believe you when you say Henson and Greco are not factors so I have to ask what are the factors in the success of our wrestling team this season? What must this year’s team accomplish for you to consider this year a success? One guy said this is our best team in a very long time. You said that Coach Flynn is doing a great job. I want you both to be right! I am just trying to find a way to justify the statements.

[Jon Perkins]

Well said Diamond, I apologize for continuing a stupid argument. I mean no harm in my comments as they are only my opinions. My opinions may not come across the way I intend because I am not best writer in world nor do I give a lot thought as to how people might perceive my comments.

However I do want to clear one thing up concerning my comment towards the RTC's. mscoach57 is 100% correct in all that he said. Yes there are several (meaning more than just a few) ways for coaches to get student athletes more money from the University whether it is from the ROTC, academic scholarships, or scholarships from private organizations and they should take advantage of all that. However, and this is MY OPINION ONLY. RTC's are non profit organizations, which means they are an organization designed for the betterment of the public in some manner, in this particular situation it is for wrestlers who wish to pursue the Olympic dream. Just because these organizations are non profit does not mean that they can not have employees. Look at the United Way and other charitable organizations they all have employees and some are making a pretty handsome salary. So the RTC being more or less a private club for the benefit of Olympic wrestlers still needs employees to be able to operate. Yes, they need someone to check people in and out, wash towels, clean the restroom and locker room, mop mats, work the clinics, and help with fundraisers not to mention the paid resident athletes and coaches. Unless you are a coach or a resident athlete you do not have to meet any criteria at all for being an employee to work at the front desk, clean a toilet, or do laundry. Now just like any business that ones with larger bank accounts typically have the more employees and compensate those employees with higher wages. So to compensate for some scholarship money some of the student athletes could be awarded a job working for the RTC.

Again I am going to repeat that this is only MY opinion, I am not saying that this happening at any particular institution but to think that it is not is kind of naive. The way the RTC was explained by mscoach57 is the way the institutions were meant to be ran, but we all know the place where money meets competition is at the intersection of corruption. Not that the RTC's are corrupt but don't think for a second there is not an attorney, out there somewhere, involved in trying to figure out a way to play by the rules as they are written and not the way they were intended. I do think this is a good topic for another thread if anyone else has any further insight or opinions on the RTC's. I think it is important for the fans to know as much about them as possible, myself included. It may clear up a lot of questions as to why one team can do things that other teams can not.

[Diamond]

I agree the loss of Noah and Sullivan hurts. Noah was the last of the Henson guys so you are right Henson is in the past and does not affect the results of this team. I agree with you that it is time for our coaches and fan base to have stop blaming the past. Accountability can be tricky.
I don’t care if we have Greco or not. Someone mentioned the importance of the RTC I was just pointing out that we do not have many wrestlers who qualify to use or practice at the RTC and of the guys who are eligible for RTC it looks the success was in Greco. Other than watching Braxton this summer I haven’t watched much Greco so please don’t think I am saying Greco is the savior of our program.
I believe you when you say Henson and Greco are not factors so I have to ask what are the factors in the success of our wrestling team this season? What must this year’s team accomplish for you to consider this year a success? One guy said this is our best team in a very long time. You said that Coach Flynn is doing a great job. I want you both to be right! I am just trying to find a way to justify the statements.

First, thank you for your posts. I hate getting on here once a month and there is nothing new or interesting. To answer your question to me. What are the factors for success? This close to the season ,much of what I think should already be complete. I know that all summer there were optional opportunities for the team to lift, drill,etc. Those who took advantage of every chance to get better would definitely be contributing to those factors. Being reckless with ones weight till last minute, drinking, vaping and finding reasons to miss any optional practice , obviously, do not contribute. I know for a fact, where my wrestler is concerned, that Coach Flynn is very proactive in making sure he is doing exactly what he should. I know he is 100% committed to WVU wrestling and helping these young men without hidden personal agenda. Hopefully my inability to properly structure a sentence and punctuate correctly does not make for a difficult read. Lol

[mscoach57]

I am concerned about the departures of 1/2 of our NCAA qualifiers and 1/4 of our coaches not to mention the other turmoil you mentioned. Before WVU Football starts every year fans have some indication of what the team is "supposed" to do. Vegas even gives an over under for the season win total for those who like to wager. In a year like this when the football team is performing below expectations and we have suffered some embarrassing losses the fans get restless. So what are the expectations for WVU Wrestling this season? If the team and individuals meet or exceed the expectations then it was a good season, but if they don't then we have to ask what went wrong. I said this earlier and it upset some people but this is Coach Flynn's team. No more blaming Henson, all of Sammie's guys have moved on. The glory and the criticism go to the man in charge.

Just like football I am trying to figure out what we should expect for wrestling this season. Our #1 fan says this is the best team we have had in a long time but gets quiet when asked what he expects in terms of production. I am not sure if I am being too optimistic or not optimistic enough.

Diamond since Jon Perkins won't answer I'll ask you what we should expect from this team. What will you be happy with, what will disappoint you?

Dual Record? I guessed 14-4
How many individual Big 12 Champs? 2
How many NCAA Qualifiers? 7
How many NCAA All Americans? 4
How many NCAA Champs? 1
Team Place at NCAA? 19th place Jon Perkins said this was the best team in a long time and Coach Flynn Tweeted "We are a top 20 team for sure" so the 21-22 Mountaineers will do better than our 20th place finish in 2015

My Guesses
11/13 Oklahoma (Defending Conference Champs) Loss
11/19 Davidson Win
11/21 NC State Loss
12/5 Ohio U Win
12/10 Glenville Win
12/12 VMI Win
12/20 Cleveland State Win
12/20 Tenn Chattanooga Win
1/9 Va Tech Loss
1/9 Binghamton Win
1/16 Oklahoma State (Defending Conference Champs) Loss
1/16 Columbia Win
1/28 S Dakota State Win
1/29 N Dakota State Win
2/4 Iowa State Win
2/5 N. Iowa Win
2/12 Utah Valley Win
2/18 Wyoming Win

[Bearhugger]

I am concerned about the departures of 1/2 of our NCAA qualifiers and 1/4 of our coaches not to mention the other turmoil you mentioned. Before WVU Football starts every year fans have some indication of what the team is "supposed" to do. Vegas even gives an over under for the season win total for those who like to wager. In a year like this when the football team is performing below expectations and we have suffered some embarrassing losses the fans get restless. So what are the expectations for WVU Wrestling this season? If the team and individuals meet or exceed the expectations then it was a good season, but if they don't then we have to ask what went wrong. I said this earlier and it upset some people but this is Coach Flynn's team. No more blaming Henson, all of Sammie's guys have moved on. The glory and the criticism go to the man in charge.

Just like football I am trying to figure out what we should expect for wrestling this season. Our #1 fan says this is the best team we have had in a long time but gets quiet when asked what he expects in terms of production. I am not sure if I am being too optimistic or not optimistic enough.

Diamond since Jon Perkins won't answer I'll ask you what we should expect from this team. What will you be happy with, what will disappoint you?

Dual Record? I guessed 14-4
How many individual Big 12 Champs? 2
How many NCAA Qualifiers? 7
How many NCAA All Americans? 4
How many NCAA Champs? 1
Team Place at NCAA? 19th place Jon Perkins said this was the best team in a long time and Coach Flynn Tweeted "We are a top 20 team for sure" so the 21-22 Mountaineers will do better than our 20th place finish in 2015

My Guesses
11/13 Oklahoma (Defending Conference Champs) Loss
11/19 Davidson Win
11/21 NC State Loss
12/5 Ohio U Win
12/10 Glenville Win
12/12 VMI Win
12/20 Cleveland State Win
12/20 Tenn Chattanooga Win
1/9 Va Tech Loss
1/9 Binghamton Win
1/16 Oklahoma State (Defending Conference Champs) Loss
1/16 Columbia Win
1/28 S Dakota State Win
1/29 N Dakota State Win
2/4 Iowa State Win
2/5 N. Iowa Win
2/12 Utah Valley Win
2/18 Wyoming Win

I cannot see how a claim to being a top 20 team could be made. In all fairness, I see this season as a "show up and see what happens" season. The wrestling foundation (wrestlers, practice partners, coaches, RTC, facilities, culture, commitment from the school, marketing department, etc, etc) has a 50% score. 50% of the NCAA qualifiers decided to return to WVU and wrestle. Another 50% decided to move on.

If this is one of WVU's best teams and this is a top 20 team, then I hope WVU has at least FIVE NCAA qualifiers. Five NCAA qualifiers out of ten weight classes. 50% of the team qualifies. That is an improvement of +1 from last season. Hopefully Cardinale and Hall do it again. We need to find 3 more. If WVU falls below 4 NCAA qualifiers, then how can anybody feel good about the future of the program? Perhaps the WVU Party culture is more than even Dan Gable, Gable Steveson and Nature Boy Ric Flair could overcome??

If WVU qualifies 7 wrestlers for the NCAA, I will jump off of a roof!!!

[Jon Perkins]

I kind of agree with Bearhugger, except the part of it being a "show up and lets see what happens" season. This team is better than that even without Adams and Sullivan. The loss of Noah will not be filled for a few years, but there is 133 pounder on the team this year that will be able to fill Ryan Sullivan's shoes right away, if he doesn't redshirt. This is definitely not a Top 20 team, I believe the tweet that was referred to came from Coach Flynn shortly after the football team lost a close game to Oklahoma. I don't believe that it had anything to with wrestling.

As far as how they will finish as a team; I was unaware that this question was directed at me in an early post but I will take a crack at it. I like most of coach57's picks except for Iowa State, Northern Iowa, and Wyoming. I don't believe that WVU has the fire power to beat these teams, yet. And the Utah Valley will be a close one but I think WVU wins. So my projected Dual record is 11 wins with 7 losses. As far as the conference and national tournaments I would like to see at least 5-6, if not more, with a top 6 finish at the BIG 12's and I would like to see 3 guys make it to the Round of 12 with at least 2 All-Americans. If the team can achieve that then I think that is an improvement over last year. Throughout the year I would like to see more guys ranked in the Top 20, I do believe this year they have the potential to have as many as 7 guys ranked in the Top 20. If that happens then that will definitely be better than last year.