"Wrestle Ins"

[Bearhugger]

With the current challenges high school football is having, the term "play ins" has been thrown around as a solution.

Football is wide open as far as setting up its state tournament. Wrestling is locked into its geographical regions that are based on just that, geography.

Perhaps it is time to level up the wrestling playing field and use "wrestle ins" as part of the solution?

AAA Region 2 doesn't have enough teams.

AA/A Region 1 is without a doubt more competitive than the other three AA/A regions.

More to come on this topic.

[KDunbar]

With the current challenges high school football is having, the term "play ins" has been thrown around as a solution.

Football is wide open as far as setting up its state tournament. Wrestling is locked into its geographical regions that are based on just that, geography.

Perhaps it is time to level up the wrestling playing field and use "wrestle ins" as part of the solution?

AAA Region 2 doesn't have enough teams.

AA/A Region 1 is without a doubt more competitive than the other three AA/A regions.

More to come on this topic.

I agree that by comparing wrestling with what is accepted and possible in football might help us all think a little outside the "old" box. This makes the usual argument for "Geography" as a big reason against a one time travel for regionals for a 14 man wrestling team with little equipment by showing that it pales in comparison to the 40 plus football team and lots of equipment traveling once or possibly another time or two in the post season to wherever it works out over the entire state. The tough problem would be how to rank the teams unless there was just one big state tournament with all teams participating in the 2 seperate groupings as done now. Then there's the individual aspect of the sport because just moving the teams around could still place the top 6 or so wrestlers still in the same region. It certainly would take some thinking as how to make this work year in and year out.

[Bearhugger]

With the current challenges high school football is having, the term "play ins" has been thrown around as a solution.

Football is wide open as far as setting up its state tournament. Wrestling is locked into its geographical regions that are based on just that, geography.

Perhaps it is time to level up the wrestling playing field and use "wrestle ins" as part of the solution?

AAA Region 2 doesn't have enough teams.

AA/A Region 1 is without a doubt more competitive than the other three AA/A regions.

More to come on this topic.

I agree that by comparing wrestling with what is accepted and possible in football might help us all think a little outside the "old" box. This makes the usual argument for "Geography" as a big reason against a one time travel for regionals for a 14 man wrestling team with little equipment by showing that it pales in comparison to the 40 plus football team and lots of equipment traveling once or possibly another time or two in the post season to wherever it works out over the entire state. The tough problem would be how to rank the teams unless there was just one big state tournament with all teams participating in the 2 seperate groupings as done now. Then there's the individual aspect of the sport because just moving the teams around could still place the top 6 or so wrestlers still in the same region. It certainly would take some thinking as how to make this work year in and year out.

My thoughts are at the individual level. We have ranked wrestlers not qualifying out of AA/A Region 1 while other wrestlers go 0 and 2 in their region and qualify.

The solution is simple and here are two scenarios:

1. Take the top 3 from each region. Then review all 4th and 5th placers from the regions and select the best four wrestlers of the pack. This could lead to a 4th and 5th place winner from region 1 going to the state tournament while only 3 wrestlers from region 3 go. The coaches' committee already gets together to select the clear cut #1 and #2 wrestlers. They could review a few more wrestlers to make this happen.

2. Leave it how it is. Have the regional 5th placers "wrestle in" against regional 4th place winners from other regions. Add 6 minutes to Thursday Night at the state tournament. Add $5 to the admission for Thursday night.

I have details from last season to support how messed up this situation it. I will post it into the forum soon.

[Panhandlewrestling]

With the current challenges high school football is having, the term "play ins" has been thrown around as a solution.

Football is wide open as far as setting up its state tournament. Wrestling is locked into its geographical regions that are based on just that, geography.

Perhaps it is time to level up the wrestling playing field and use "wrestle ins" as part of the solution?

AAA Region 2 doesn't have enough teams.

AA/A Region 1 is without a doubt more competitive than the other three AA/A regions.

More to come on this topic.

I agree that by comparing wrestling with what is accepted and possible in football might help us all think a little outside the "old" box. This makes the usual argument for "Geography" as a big reason against a one time travel for regionals for a 14 man wrestling team with little equipment by showing that it pales in comparison to the 40 plus football team and lots of equipment traveling once or possibly another time or two in the post season to wherever it works out over the entire state. The tough problem would be how to rank the teams unless there was just one big state tournament with all teams participating in the 2 seperate groupings as done now. Then there's the individual aspect of the sport because just moving the teams around could still place the top 6 or so wrestlers still in the same region. It certainly would take some thinking as how to make this work year in and year out.

My thoughts are at the individual level. We have ranked wrestlers not qualifying out of AA/A Region 1 while other wrestlers go 0 and 2 in their region and qualify.

The solution is simple and here are two scenarios:

1. Take the top 3 from each region. Then review all 4th and 5th placers from the regions and select the best four wrestlers of the pack. This could lead to a 4th and 5th place winner from region 1 going to the state tournament while only 3 wrestlers from region 3 go. The coaches' committee already gets together to select the clear cut #1 and #2 wrestlers. They could review a few more wrestlers to make this happen.

2. Leave it how it is. Have the regional 5th placers "wrestle in" against regional 4th place winners from other regions. Add 6 minutes to Thursday Night at the state tournament. Add $5 to the admission for Thursday night.

I have details from last season to support how messed up this situation it. I will post it into the forum soon.

There are multiples issues with your genius idea.
1. This isn’t college football. What “committee” is going to choose the best 4th and 5th placers? Not everyone gets to see these kids wrestle and especially determine who is better between a 15-18 4th placer from Region 1 and a 15-18 4th placer from Region 2.

2. If said wrestler is getting 5th place in a regional, they didn’t do enough to make the tournament, per WVSSAC rules. The 4th placer, no matter how they got it done, did enough to make the tournament. 5th placers should continue being alternate replacements or do better and get 4th.

[Jon Perkins]

I kind of like the idea of adding each regions 5th place wrestler to the state tournament. Not for the fact of benefiting one region over another but to award the athletes for the months of hard work. Add a Pigtail round on Thursday evening and let them face a fourth-place winner from another region. Although I don't think a regional 5th place finisher will be a huge factor for an individual state title, they could add a few wins gaining valuable points in a team race.

[KDunbar]

I kind of like the idea of adding each regions 5th place wrestler to the state tournament. Not for the fact of benefiting one region over another but to award the athletes for the months of hard work. Add a Pigtail round on Thursday evening and let them face a fourth-place winner from another region. Although I don't think a regional 5th place finisher will be a huge factor for an individual state title, they could add a few wins gaining valuable points in a team race.

I understand where both you and Bearhugger are coming from and don't really disagree with anything in particular. However, in fairness to Bearhugger, I don't think he was actually just trying to benefit only one region. He was just pointing out that at this time in history it is likely the region he cited that would most benefit (both from an individual and a team perspective) from this set up. For almost the entire 60 years that I have been following WV high school wrestling, the region I have paid the closest attention to has dealt with this inequiety, but just lived with it. I suppose that is not necessarily an argument against change if it doesn't weaken the competition and harm a deserving wrestler. I'm just saying that in past years (and it actually still continues) it has often times been AAA Region 1 and for a period of time AAA Region 4. You would get less of an uproar from parents if you didn't eliminate a 4th place finisher and just added a 5th place and wrestled one more match Thursday, until they found out that the pigtail match was a one and out single elimination from the tourney. You would also catch a lot of grief if the Thursday night ticket prices went up to compensate the referees who are already vastly underpaid . You can never please all of the people.

[Bearhugger]

I agree that by comparing wrestling with what is accepted and possible in football might help us all think a little outside the "old" box. This makes the usual argument for "Geography" as a big reason against a one time travel for regionals for a 14 man wrestling team with little equipment by showing that it pales in comparison to the 40 plus football team and lots of equipment traveling once or possibly another time or two in the post season to wherever it works out over the entire state. The tough problem would be how to rank the teams unless there was just one big state tournament with all teams participating in the 2 seperate groupings as done now. Then there's the individual aspect of the sport because just moving the teams around could still place the top 6 or so wrestlers still in the same region. It certainly would take some thinking as how to make this work year in and year out.

My thoughts are at the individual level. We have ranked wrestlers not qualifying out of AA/A Region 1 while other wrestlers go 0 and 2 in their region and qualify.

The solution is simple and here are two scenarios:

1. Take the top 3 from each region. Then review all 4th and 5th placers from the regions and select the best four wrestlers of the pack. This could lead to a 4th and 5th place winner from region 1 going to the state tournament while only 3 wrestlers from region 3 go. The coaches' committee already gets together to select the clear cut #1 and #2 wrestlers. They could review a few more wrestlers to make this happen.

2. Leave it how it is. Have the regional 5th placers "wrestle in" against regional 4th place winners from other regions. Add 6 minutes to Thursday Night at the state tournament. Add $5 to the admission for Thursday night.

I have details from last season to support how messed up this situation it. I will post it into the forum soon.

There are multiples issues with your genius idea.
1. This isn’t college football. What “committee” is going to choose the best 4th and 5th placers? Not everyone gets to see these kids wrestle and especially determine who is better between a 15-18 4th placer from Region 1 and a 15-18 4th placer from Region 2.

2. If said wrestler is getting 5th place in a regional, they didn’t do enough to make the tournament, per WVSSAC rules. The 4th placer, no matter how they got it done, did enough to make the tournament. 5th placers should continue being alternate replacements or do better and get 4th.

PLEASE ALLOW ME TO GIVE YOU A QUICK RESPONSE. I AM USING ALL CAPS SO I CAN ADDRESS YOUR INPUT:

There are multiples issues with your genius idea.
1. This isn’t college football. What “committee” is going to choose the best 4th and 5th placers? Not everyone gets to see these kids wrestle and especially determine who is better between a 15-18 4th placer from Region 1 and a 15-18 4th placer from Region 2. AS STATED IN MY POST YOU RESPONDED TO, I MENTIONED THE COACHES' COMMITTEE. THEY ALREADY MEET IN PERSON TO DISCUSS THAT THE PILL SELECTED SEPARATES THE CLEAR CUT #1 AND #2 WRESTLERS. AA/A REGION 1 HAS HIGHLY RANKED WRESTLERS GET 5TH IN THE REGION BECAUSE THEY LOSE TWO MATCHES TO HIGHER RANKED WRESTLERS. THESE TWO HIGHER RANKED WRESTLERS GO ON AND WIN OR PLACE IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT. OVER IN REGIONS 2,3 AND 4, THERE ARE WRESTLERS WHO MAKE THE STATE TOURNAMENT BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY 4 WRESTLERS IN THE WEIGHT CLASS. FURTHERMORE, SOME OF THESE QUALIFIERS HAVE SUB-LOSING RECORDS, THEY NEVER BEAT A RANKED WRESTLER ALL SEASON LONG AND THEY WENT 0 AND 2 IN THEIR REGION.

2. If said wrestler is getting 5th place in a regional, they didn’t do enough to make the tournament, per WVSSAC rules. The 4th placer, no matter how they got it done, did enough to make the tournament. 5th placers should continue being alternate replacements or do better and get 4th.
WVSSAC RULES CHANGE ALL THE TIME. THERE HAVE BEEN RULE CHANGES MADE IN THE SPORT OF WV WRESTLING IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS THAT HAVE IMPROVED THE SPORT. TWO THAT COME TO MIND IS SELECTING A 5TH PLACERS FROM ANOTHER REGION TO FILL AN OPENING DUE TO ANOTHER REGION ONLY HAVING 3 WRESTLERS. THIS AVOIDS THURSDAY NIGHT BYES, VACANCIES, VOIDS, ETC, ETC AT THE STATE TOURNAMENT. ANOTHER RULE CHANGE IS WHERE THE COACHES' COMMITTEE MEETS AFTER THE REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS TO DETERMINE WHO ARE THE #1 AND #2 WRESTLERS IN EACH WEIGHT CLASS.

THE WRESTLING REGIONS ARE SET UP PURELY BASED ON GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION. THE REGIONAL MAPS ON THIS SITE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE THIS. AA/A REGION 1 HAS MUCH MORE TALENTED WRESTLERS THAN AA/A REGION 2 OR 3. SOME OF THE SCHOOLS STAY HIDDEN ALL SEASON LONG UNTIL REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS.

IN AAA, THE REGIONS HAVE THE FOLLOWING TOTAL TEAMS:

REGION 1 = 9 TEAMS
REGION 2 = 6 TEAMS
REGION 3 = 10 TEAMS
REGION 4 = 8 TEAMS

BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN BEGINS, THE TEAM DISTRIBUTION PER REGION DOESN'T LOOK LIKE AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD TO ME. A WRESTLER IN REGION TWO ONLY HAS TO SURVIVE 5 GUYS TO GRAB ONE OF FOUR SPOTS.

FOOTBALL HAS NO PROBLEM HAVING TEAMS CRISSCROSS ACROSS THE STATE TO PLAY A PLAY OFF GAME. BUSES WILL BE TRAVELING FROM THE EASTERN PANHANDLE TO KANAWHA, PUTNAM OR CABELL COUNTY. WHILE THIS HAPPENS, TEAMS FROM KANAWHA, PUTNAM AND CABELL COUNTY WILL BE TRAVELING TO THE EASTERN PANHANDLE.

I HAVE MUCH MORE DETAIL TO SUPPORT MY RECOMENDATIONS ABOVE, BUT IT WILL HAVE TO COME LATER.

I AGREE THAT A WRESTLER NEEDS TO DO BETTER TO ADVANCE FROM 5TH TO 4TH IN HIS REGION. HOWEVER, I DO NOT AGREE WITH A WRESTLER DOING NOTHING AND GETTING AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO THE STATE TOURNAMENT BECAUSE THE DECK WAS STACKED IN HIS FAVOR.

STAY TUNED.

[Bearhugger]

I kind of like the idea of adding each regions 5th place wrestler to the state tournament. Not for the fact of benefiting one region over another but to award the athletes for the months of hard work. Add a Pigtail round on Thursday evening and let them face a fourth-place winner from another region. Although I don't think a regional 5th place finisher will be a huge factor for an individual state title, they could add a few wins gaining valuable points in a team race.

I understand where both you and Bearhugger are coming from and don't really disagree with anything in particular. However, in fairness to Bearhugger, I don't think he was actually just trying to benefit only one region. He was just pointing out that at this time in history it is likely the region he cited that would most benefit (both from an individual and a team perspective) from this set up. For almost the entire 60 years that I have been following WV high school wrestling, the region I have paid the closest attention to has dealt with this inequiety, but just lived with it. I suppose that is not necessarily an argument against change if it doesn't weaken the competition and harm a deserving wrestler. I'm just saying that in past years (and it actually still continues) it has often times been AAA Region 1 and for a period of time AAA Region 4. You would get less of an uproar from parents if you didn't eliminate a 4th place finisher and just added a 5th place and wrestled one more match Thursday, until they found out that the pigtail match was a one and out single elimination from the tourney. You would also catch a lot of grief if the Thursday night ticket prices went up to compensate the referees who are already vastly underpaid . You can never please all of the people.

My recommendations would be equal across all regions and correct the two biggest weaknesses to the existing regional set up.

In AAA, there is an uneven distribution of teams per region first. The grouping of talent isn't as severe.

In AA/A, there is a higher concentration of talent in one or two regions. Despite the large amount of teams in all AA/A regions, some of the schools are small and/or their programs are skeleton crews. Small programs do not produce full teams. Less than full teams produce weight classes with only 4 wrestlers to grab four state tournament qualification spots.

As for Thursday night ticket prices going up, it shouldn't be much. the whole process would add barely 12 minutes to Thursday night.

[Bearhugger]

My thoughts are at the individual level. We have ranked wrestlers not qualifying out of AA/A Region 1 while other wrestlers go 0 and 2 in their region and qualify.

The solution is simple and here are two scenarios:

1. Take the top 3 from each region. Then review all 4th and 5th placers from the regions and select the best four wrestlers of the pack. This could lead to a 4th and 5th place winner from region 1 going to the state tournament while only 3 wrestlers from region 3 go. The coaches' committee already gets together to select the clear cut #1 and #2 wrestlers. They could review a few more wrestlers to make this happen.

2. Leave it how it is. Have the regional 5th placers "wrestle in" against regional 4th place winners from other regions. Add 6 minutes to Thursday Night at the state tournament. Add $5 to the admission for Thursday night.

I have details from last season to support how messed up this situation it. I will post it into the forum soon.

There are multiples issues with your genius idea.
1. This isn’t college football. What “committee” is going to choose the best 4th and 5th placers? Not everyone gets to see these kids wrestle and especially determine who is better between a 15-18 4th placer from Region 1 and a 15-18 4th placer from Region 2.

2. If said wrestler is getting 5th place in a regional, they didn’t do enough to make the tournament, per WVSSAC rules. The 4th placer, no matter how they got it done, did enough to make the tournament. 5th placers should continue being alternate replacements or do better and get 4th.

PLEASE ALLOW ME TO GIVE YOU A QUICK RESPONSE. I AM USING ALL CAPS SO I CAN ADDRESS YOUR INPUT:

There are multiples issues with your genius idea.
1. This isn’t college football. What “committee” is going to choose the best 4th and 5th placers? Not everyone gets to see these kids wrestle and especially determine who is better between a 15-18 4th placer from Region 1 and a 15-18 4th placer from Region 2. AS STATED IN MY POST YOU RESPONDED TO, I MENTIONED THE COACHES' COMMITTEE. THEY ALREADY MEET IN PERSON TO DISCUSS THAT THE PILL SELECTED SEPARATES THE CLEAR CUT #1 AND #2 WRESTLERS. AA/A REGION 1 HAS HIGHLY RANKED WRESTLERS GET 5TH IN THE REGION BECAUSE THEY LOSE TWO MATCHES TO HIGHER RANKED WRESTLERS. THESE TWO HIGHER RANKED WRESTLERS GO ON AND WIN OR PLACE IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT. OVER IN REGIONS 2,3 AND 4, THERE ARE WRESTLERS WHO MAKE THE STATE TOURNAMENT BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY 4 WRESTLERS IN THE WEIGHT CLASS. FURTHERMORE, SOME OF THESE QUALIFIERS HAVE SUB-LOSING RECORDS, THEY NEVER BEAT A RANKED WRESTLER ALL SEASON LONG AND THEY WENT 0 AND 2 IN THEIR REGION.

2. If said wrestler is getting 5th place in a regional, they didn’t do enough to make the tournament, per WVSSAC rules. The 4th placer, no matter how they got it done, did enough to make the tournament. 5th placers should continue being alternate replacements or do better and get 4th.
WVSSAC RULES CHANGE ALL THE TIME. THERE HAVE BEEN RULE CHANGES MADE IN THE SPORT OF WV WRESTLING IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS THAT HAVE IMPROVED THE SPORT. TWO THAT COME TO MIND IS SELECTING A 5TH PLACERS FROM ANOTHER REGION TO FILL AN OPENING DUE TO ANOTHER REGION ONLY HAVING 3 WRESTLERS. THIS AVOIDS THURSDAY NIGHT BYES, VACANCIES, VOIDS, ETC, ETC AT THE STATE TOURNAMENT. ANOTHER RULE CHANGE IS WHERE THE COACHES' COMMITTEE MEETS AFTER THE REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS TO DETERMINE WHO ARE THE #1 AND #2 WRESTLERS IN EACH WEIGHT CLASS.

THE WRESTLING REGIONS ARE SET UP PURELY BASED ON GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION. THE REGIONAL MAPS ON THIS SITE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE THIS. AA/A REGION 1 HAS MUCH MORE TALENTED WRESTLERS THAN AA/A REGION 2 OR 3. SOME OF THE SCHOOLS STAY HIDDEN ALL SEASON LONG UNTIL REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS.

IN AAA, THE REGIONS HAVE THE FOLLOWING TOTAL TEAMS:

REGION 1 = 9 TEAMS
REGION 2 = 6 TEAMS
REGION 3 = 10 TEAMS
REGION 4 = 8 TEAMS

BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN BEGINS, THE TEAM DISTRIBUTION PER REGION DOESN'T LOOK LIKE AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD TO ME. A WRESTLER IN REGION TWO ONLY HAS TO SURVIVE 5 GUYS TO GRAB ONE OF FOUR SPOTS.

FOOTBALL HAS NO PROBLEM HAVING TEAMS CRISSCROSS ACROSS THE STATE TO PLAY A PLAY OFF GAME. BUSES WILL BE TRAVELING FROM THE EASTERN PANHANDLE TO KANAWHA, PUTNAM OR CABELL COUNTY. WHILE THIS HAPPENS, TEAMS FROM KANAWHA, PUTNAM AND CABELL COUNTY WILL BE TRAVELING TO THE EASTERN PANHANDLE.

I HAVE MUCH MORE DETAIL TO SUPPORT MY RECOMENDATIONS ABOVE, BUT IT WILL HAVE TO COME LATER.

I AGREE THAT A WRESTLER NEEDS TO DO BETTER TO ADVANCE FROM 5TH TO 4TH IN HIS REGION. HOWEVER, I DO NOT AGREE WITH A WRESTLER DOING NOTHING AND GETTING AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO THE STATE TOURNAMENT BECAUSE THE DECK WAS STACKED IN HIS FAVOR.

STAY TUNED.

It is very, very early. However, even the "early information" is already supporting the argument. At the end of my dialogue, you will see the preseason rankings for AA/A 106. The wrestlers are listed in order for the state and then broken down within their region. Already, region 1 has four wrestlers with enough of a resume to be put on the watch list. The other three regions have two wrestlers a piece. Again, it is early. Lets just watch how the season develops and where the ranked wrestlers land region wise. Good luck to all




BEAR TRACKS 2024 – 2025

Edition – Preseason 4
1 The rankings are listed for the entire state and then also broken down by region.
2 The ranked wrestlers below are ranked at their projected weight class for the start of the season.
3 Outsiders and Freshmen Extraordinaires are listed in alphabetical order.
4 In the regional rankings, the wrestlers retain their state rankings to reflect regional strength.

Date of Issue: November 19, 2024

Wrestler information is listed as follows: Name, School, State Tournament Place/Designation, Grade, QOP

Weight Classes:
106 AA/A
1 Scarafino, Independence, Fifth Place, Junior, QOP 25
2 Kesterson, Greenbrier West, Sixth Place, Sophomore, QOP 23
3 Schoolcraft, Calhoun County, Q1, Sophomore, QOP 7
4 Balis, Wirt County, Q1, Junior, QOP 12
5 Lilley, Cameron, Freshman Extraordinaire
6 Files, Frankfort, Outsider,
7 Marshall, Wheeling Central, Outsider, Sophomore
8 Meadows, Braxton County, Outsider, Sophomore
9 Stanislawczk, Keyser, Outsider, Sophomore
10 Watson, Ritchie County, Outsider, Sophomore

REGION 1
5 Lilley, Cameron, Freshman Extraordinaire
6 Files, Frankfort, Outsider,
7 Marshall, Wheeling Central, Outsider, Sophomore
9 Stanislawczk, Keyser, Outsider, Sophomore

REGION 2
8 Meadows, Braxton County, Outsider, Sophomore
10 Watson, Ritchie County, Outsider, Sophomore

REGION 3
1 Scarafino, Independence, Fifth Place, Junior, QOP 25
2 Kesterson, Greenbrier West, Sixth Place, Sophomore, QOP 23


REGION 4
3 Schoolcraft, Calhoun County, Q1, Sophomore, QOP 7
4 Balis, Wirt County, Q1, Junior, QOP 12

Comments: It is very early. However, the notorious Region 1 is the only region with four ranked wrestlers while the other regions have two each.

[Bearhugger]

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

BEAR TRACKS 2024 – 2025

Edition – Preseason 4
1 The rankings are listed for the entire state and then also broken down by region.
2 The ranked wrestlers below are ranked at their projected weight class for the start of the season.
3 Outsiders and Freshmen Extraordinaires are listed in alphabetical order.
4 In the regional rankings, the wrestlers retain their state rankings to reflect regional strength.

Date of Issue: November 19, 2024

Wrestler information is listed as follows: Name, School, State Tournament Place/Designation, Grade, QOP

Weight Classes:
157 AA/A
1 Preolitti, East Fairmont, Runner Up, Sophomore
2 Kay, Ripley, Fourth Place, Senior, QOP 25
3 Harrison, Hoover, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 21
4 A.Detrick, Keyser, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 5
5 Wolford, Petersburg, Fast Climber, Junior
6 Cain, Berkeley Springs, Q1, Senior, QOP 11
7 B Winfrey, Tyler Consolidated, Q1, Senior, QOP 9
8 Jenkins, South Harrison, Q, Senior, QOP 19
9 Webb, Roane County, Q, Sophomore, QOP 13
10 Boyce, Oak Glen, Q, Junior, QOP 4
11 Miller, Cameron, Freshman Extraordinaire

REGION 1
1 Preolitti, East Fairmont, Runner Up, Sophomore
4 A.Detrick, Keyser, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 5
6 Cain, Berkeley Springs, Q1, Senior, QOP 11
7 B Winfrey, Tyler Consolidated, Q1, Senior, QOP 9
10 Boyce, Oak Glen, Q, Junior, QOP 4
11 Miller, Cameron, Freshman Extraordinaire

REGION 2
5 Wolford, Petersburg, Fast Climber, Junior
8 Jenkins, South Harrison, Q, Senior, QOP 19
9 Webb, Roane County, Q, Sophomore, QOP 13

REGION 3
3 Harrison, Hoover, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 21

REGION 4
2 Kay, Ripley, Fourth Place, Senior, QOP 25

Comments: ELEVEN wrestlers make it into the current preseason rankings. SIX of them are in region ONE. Only one each in regions 3 and 4. We need a wild card system.

[rburd5992]

I don't hate the idea of "wrestle-ins". Let the 5th place guys pigtail in against a 4th place of another region based on the pill.

I also don't see it as a huge problem if those 5th placers stay home either. They couldn't place top 4 in their region. The chances of them making the podium are slim at best. There could be an argument made for the potential gain in team points.

Based on the preseason rankings, there are really only 2 or 3 weight classes where the difference in ranked wrestlers is more than 1 between the top two regions.

I do think its a good thing to have these discussions, but at the end of the day i don't believe that the current system is hindering wrestling at the state wide level.

Just my thoughts,
Ronnie Burdette

[Bearhugger]

I don't hate the idea of "wrestle-ins". Let the 5th place guys pigtail in against a 4th place of another region based on the pill.

I also don't see it as a huge problem if those 5th placers stay home either. They couldn't place top 4 in their region. The chances of them making the podium are slim at best. There could be an argument made for the potential gain in team points.

Based on the preseason rankings, there are really only 2 or 3 weight classes where the difference in ranked wrestlers is more than 1 between the top two regions.

I do think its a good thing to have these discussions, but at the end of the day i don't believe that the current system is hindering wrestling at the state wide level.

Just my thoughts,
Ronnie Burdette

The season is early. However, I just finished preseason #4 for AAA 132. There is not one single preseason ranked 132 coming out of region 2. Region 2 is also the smallest region with only 6 teams.

[Bearhugger]

Here is a chopped down version of Preseason 4 AAA 138:


Weight Classes:
138 AAA
1 Roark, Woodrow Wilson, State Champion, Senior
2 Walker, Fairmont Senior, Runner Up, Junior
3 McComas, George Washington, Runner Up, Senior
4 Pauley, University, Fourth Place, Senior, QOP 18
5 Anderson, Cabell Midland, 5th Place, Sophomore, QOP 25
6 A. McDowell, Buckhannon-Upshur, Fifth Place, Senior, QOP 16
7 Carman, Wheeling Park, Blood Round, Sophomore
8 Way, Parkersburg, Fast Climber, Sophomore,
9 Ward, John Marshall, Q1, Senior, QOP 14
10 Hale, Greenbrier East, Q1, Senior, QOP 4
11 Kelley, Parkersburg South, Q, Senior, QOP 17
12 Walcott, Morgantown, Q, Junior, QOP 13
13 Goodwin, Musselman, Q, Junior, QOP 8
14 Lantz, Preston County, Q, Sophomore, QOP 3
15 Godbey, Greenbrier East, Outsider, Senior

REGION 1
2 Walker, Fairmont Senior, Runner Up, Junior
4 Pauley, University, Fourth Place, Senior, QOP 18
6 A. McDowell, Buckhannon-Upshur, Fifth Place, Senior, QOP 16
7 Carman, Wheeling Park, Blood Round, Sophomore
9 Ward, John Marshall, Q1, Senior, QOP 14
12 Walcott, Morgantown, Q, Junior, QOP 13
14 Lantz, Preston County, Q, Sophomore, QOP 3

REGION 2
13 Goodwin, Musselman, Q, Junior, QOP 8


REGION 3
1 Roark, Woodrow Wilson, State Champion, Senior
3 McComas, George Washington, Runner Up, Senior
10 Hale, Greenbrier East, Q1, Senior, QOP 4
15 Godbey, Greenbrier East, Outsider, Senior

REGION 4
5 Anderson, Cabell Midland, 5th Place, Sophomore, QOP 25
8 Way, Parkersburg, Fast Climber, Sophomore,
11 Kelley, Parkersburg South, Q, Senior, QOP 17

Comments: SEVEN state placers and qualifiers in Region 1. ONE state qualifier in region 2.


The commonly used deflective statement of "if a wrestler isn't good enough to make the top four in his region, he needs to work harder" or whatever.

Ok. We potentially have seven state placers and qualifiers in region 1. Region 2 has one. Who are the other three wrestlers going to the state tournament from region 2 while past state qualifiers stay home?

Lets just watch how the season unfolds.

Good luck to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rburd5992]

The season is early. However, I just finished preseason #4 for AAA 132. There is not one single preseason ranked 132 coming out of region 2. Region 2 is also the smallest region with only 6 teams.

That is a fair point. I do think the AAA regions should at least be normalized in terms of participating teams. I think it would be difficult to guarantee an equal dispersion of ranked wrestlers though. With so few AAA teams in each region, you are bound to have a stacked wc almost any way you cut it.

[Bearhugger]

The season is early. However, I just finished preseason #4 for AAA 132. There is not one single preseason ranked 132 coming out of region 2. Region 2 is also the smallest region with only 6 teams.

That is a fair point. I do think the AAA regions should at least be normalized in terms of participating teams. I think it would be difficult to guarantee an equal dispersion of ranked wrestlers though. With so few AAA teams in each region, you are bound to have a stacked wc almost any way you cut it.

There will never be equal distribution of ranked wrestlers across the regions. All the more reason to look at alternative ways to handle than to just take whatever four wrestlers show up and make weight.

Again, it is early. However, this is a detail everybody should pay a little attention to during the season.

[KDunbar]

As I have previously stated, I understand one of the basic points you are trying to make. I will concur with you on the concept that the regional alignment of wrestling being based on geography makes a comparison between what teams/individuals reach the state playoffs/tournament much different in wrestling compared to football. However, I would have to make a warning that one concept being used might be flawed based on the very problem you are trying to solve. You are implyimg that just because a wrestler made the state tournament in the previous year (and maybe only won none or one match) means they seemingly should be doing the same the following year. It is quite possible that the reason for them being there the prior year was simply because they were in a weaker weight class than they are at this time and not because they necesarily were simply that good. A lot of things are not ideal, but unless the wrestler not getting to go to the tournament is actually the 5th, 6th, or possibly the 7th best wrestler at that weight class I'm not sure it is a significant problem. It certainly is not a factor in the overall race for the team title.

[Bearhugger]

As I have previously stated, I understand one of the basic points you are trying to make. I will concur with you on the concept that the regional alignment of wrestling being based on geography makes a comparison between what teams/individuals reach the state playoffs/tournament much different in wrestling compared to football. However, I would have to make a warning that one concept being used might be flawed based on the very problem you are trying to solve. You are implyimg that just because a wrestler made the state tournament in the previous year (and maybe only won none or one match) means they seemingly should be doing the same the following year. It is quite possible that the reason for them being there the prior year was simply because they were in a weaker weight class than they are at this time and not because they necesarily were simply that good. A lot of things are not ideal, but unless the wrestler not getting to go to the tournament is actually the 5th, 6th, or possibly the 7th best wrestler at that weight class I'm not sure it is a significant problem. It certainly is not a factor in the overall race for the team title.

You might have provided more support for the regional problem. If some of the preseason ranked wrestlers only qualified last season because of being in a weak weight class in a weak region, then we needed a modified system last season. We didn't have it.

The football community held almost all winter sports hostage because teams wanted to go to the state football tournament. They wanted a home playoff game. They wanted two home playoff games. Football is a bigger community. We see how they think. If wrestling continues to think the same way, it will continue to shrink.

[KDunbar]

[quote="Bearhugger"][quote="Panhandlewrestling"][quote="Bearhugger"]

THE WRESTLING REGIONS ARE SET UP PURELY BASED ON GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION. THE REGIONAL MAPS ON THIS SITE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE THIS. AA/A REGION 1 HAS MUCH MORE TALENTED WRESTLERS THAN AA/A REGION 2 OR 3. SOME OF THE SCHOOLS STAY HIDDEN ALL SEASON LONG UNTIL REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS.

IN AAA, THE REGIONS HAVE THE FOLLOWING TOTAL TEAMS:

REGION 1 = 9 TEAMS
REGION 2 = 6 TEAMS
REGION 3 = 10 TEAMS
REGION 4 = 8 TEAMS

The above is from a previous post and referenced regarding the inequity between regions.
I know that some are aware of the following, but in making arguments one must be sure they are comparing "apples to apples".
In AAA Region 3, from last years regionals, the following occurred that makes listing the # of teams misleading. Saint Albans (which had a good team) had only 8 wrestlers and qualified 7, Capital had 11 wrestlers (which was great) but only qualified 2 wrestlers, Princeton had only 5 wrestlers and qualified 2 wrestlers, and South Charleston had only 3 wrestlers and qualified 1. Also, there is an error on the page being referenced regarding the # of teams in AAA Region 4 and it is actually 7 teams and not 8 as listed. Now this information might possibly emphasize the strength of competition in AAA Region 1, and with the new addition of Fairmont Senior, I too think that 1 or 2 teams from that region probably should have been moved, from a wrestling standpoint, into Region 2. However, this knowledge of the teams included in Region 3 makes AAA Region 2 not seem so much different than Regions 3 and 4 based simply on # of teams because of the make up of those teams. There are other sports still being included on the 3 classification system and I'm guessing the powers that be don't really know much about the makeup of teams and the relative strength historically when considering things. I know that historically cross country has had the same "unfair" problem with the geographical regional make up.

[KDunbar]

As I have previously stated, I understand one of the basic points you are trying to make. I will concur with you on the concept that the regional alignment of wrestling being based on geography makes a comparison between what teams/individuals reach the state playoffs/tournament much different in wrestling compared to football. However, I would have to make a warning that one concept being used might be flawed based on the very problem you are trying to solve. You are implyimg that just because a wrestler made the state tournament in the previous year (and maybe only won none or one match) means they seemingly should be doing the same the following year. It is quite possible that the reason for them being there the prior year was simply because they were in a weaker weight class than they are at this time and not because they necesarily were simply that good. A lot of things are not ideal, but unless the wrestler not getting to go to the tournament is actually the 5th, 6th, or possibly the 7th best wrestler at that weight class I'm not sure it is a significant problem. It certainly is not a factor in the overall race for the team title.

You might have provided more support for the regional problem. If some of the preseason ranked wrestlers only qualified last season because of being in a weak weight class in a weak region, then we needed a modified system last season. We didn't have it.

The football community held almost all winter sports hostage because teams wanted to go to the state football tournament. They wanted a home playoff game. They wanted two home playoff games. Football is a bigger community. We see how they think. If wrestling continues to think the same way, it will continue to shrink.

I don't think so, in terms of proving anything. I'm saying that in the end the determination for whether one should possibly be in the tournament will only be on how things work out in reality and not on theoretical assumptions based on somewhat inaccurate assessments made this early on. In other words, let's just look at what really happened previously instead of putting too much stock in what might happen. I get what you started talking about but don't feel like one should be pushing panic buttons about the information being posulated, which are not facts.

[Bearhugger]

As I have previously stated, I understand one of the basic points you are trying to make. I will concur with you on the concept that the regional alignment of wrestling being based on geography makes a comparison between what teams/individuals reach the state playoffs/tournament much different in wrestling compared to football. However, I would have to make a warning that one concept being used might be flawed based on the very problem you are trying to solve. You are implyimg that just because a wrestler made the state tournament in the previous year (and maybe only won none or one match) means they seemingly should be doing the same the following year. It is quite possible that the reason for them being there the prior year was simply because they were in a weaker weight class than they are at this time and not because they necesarily were simply that good. A lot of things are not ideal, but unless the wrestler not getting to go to the tournament is actually the 5th, 6th, or possibly the 7th best wrestler at that weight class I'm not sure it is a significant problem. It certainly is not a factor in the overall race for the team title.

You might have provided more support for the regional problem. If some of the preseason ranked wrestlers only qualified last season because of being in a weak weight class in a weak region, then we needed a modified system last season. We didn't have it.

The football community held almost all winter sports hostage because teams wanted to go to the state football tournament. They wanted a home playoff game. They wanted two home playoff games. Football is a bigger community. We see how they think. If wrestling continues to think the same way, it will continue to shrink.

I don't think so, in terms of proving anything. I'm saying that in the end the determination for whether one should possibly be in the tournament will only be on how things work out in reality and not on theoretical assumptions based on somewhat inaccurate assessments made this early on. In other words, let's just look at what really happened previously instead of putting too much stock in what might happen. I get what you started talking about but don't feel like one should be pushing panic buttons about the information being posulated, which are not facts.

Preseason AAA 190 Region 1
REGION 1
1 Maynard, Wheeling Park, Runner Up, Senior
2 E. Knight, Bridgeport, Third Place, Sophomore, QOP 16
4 Hastings, University, Fourth Place, Junior, QOP 21
5 Lemasters, John Marshall, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 23
10 Thompson, Buckhannon-Upshur, Q1, Senior, QOP 9

Four out of the top 5 are in region 1. Their preseason ranking is based on how they beat up many people last season in the state tournament. Given that these guys get on the mat and stay on the mat, there is a high probability they will be top 5 to 8 to say the least. There is a much lower probability that incoming freshmen, transfers and qualifiers from other regions got so much better that they are going to erase all of these guys.

I am simply bringing awareness and doing so now so all readers can follow along as the season progresses. The talk of panic buttons and not having these conversations were not brought up by me.

It will be sad if a wrestler qualifies for the state tournament by going 0 and 2 in his region while another wrestler in region 1 stays home because he got 5th at 190. Do we want the best wrestlers in the state tournament?

[Bearhugger]

Thank you once again. Your detail provided about the teams in region 3 and their small teams they had last season is a problem. Many of these said teams historically have small numbers. It isn't the fault of the coach or the wrestlers. It simply is what it is. Since the "is" is what it is every season, all the more reason to make a change.

There will be more to come on this with much more detail.

Does cross country allow more than one runner per school? Back in the 80s, numerous runners got to represent the same school and run together. It was possible that the top 2, 3 or 4 runners in the race could come from the same school. Interesting concept.

Enjoy!

[KDunbar]

You might have provided more support for the regional problem. If some of the preseason ranked wrestlers only qualified last season because of being in a weak weight class in a weak region, then we needed a modified system last season. We didn't have it.

The football community held almost all winter sports hostage because teams wanted to go to the state football tournament. They wanted a home playoff game. They wanted two home playoff games. Football is a bigger community. We see how they think. If wrestling continues to think the same way, it will continue to shrink.

I don't think so, in terms of proving anything. I'm saying that in the end the determination for whether one should possibly be in the tournament will only be on how things work out in reality and not on theoretical assumptions based on somewhat inaccurate assessments made this early on. In other words, let's just look at what really happened previously instead of putting too much stock in what might happen. I get what you started talking about but don't feel like one should be pushing panic buttons about the information being posulated, which are not facts.

Preseason AAA 190 Region 1
REGION 1
1 Maynard, Wheeling Park, Runner Up, Senior
2 E. Knight, Bridgeport, Third Place, Sophomore, QOP 16
4 Hastings, University, Fourth Place, Junior, QOP 21
5 Lemasters, John Marshall, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 23
10 Thompson, Buckhannon-Upshur, Q1, Senior, QOP 9

Four out of the top 5 are in region 1. Their preseason ranking is based on how they beat up many people last season in the state tournament. Given that these guys get on the mat and stay on the mat, there is a high probability they will be top 5 to 8 to say the least. There is a much lower probability that incoming freshmen, transfers and qualifiers from other regions got so much better that they are going to erase all of these guys.

I am simply bringing awareness and doing so now so all readers can follow along as the season progresses. The talk of panic buttons and not having these conversations were not brought up by me.

It will be sad if a wrestler qualifies for the state tournament by going 0 and 2 in his region while another wrestler in region 1 stays home because he got 5th at 190. Do we want the best wrestlers in the state tournament?

That's not fair, you were holding that ranking back until after I made my comment (just kidding). At any rate it is only a "possible" 10th ranked guy not going, who theoretically is a 2 and out performer at states.

[Bearhugger]

I don't think so, in terms of proving anything. I'm saying that in the end the determination for whether one should possibly be in the tournament will only be on how things work out in reality and not on theoretical assumptions based on somewhat inaccurate assessments made this early on. In other words, let's just look at what really happened previously instead of putting too much stock in what might happen. I get what you started talking about but don't feel like one should be pushing panic buttons about the information being posulated, which are not facts.

Preseason AAA 190 Region 1
REGION 1
1 Maynard, Wheeling Park, Runner Up, Senior
2 E. Knight, Bridgeport, Third Place, Sophomore, QOP 16
4 Hastings, University, Fourth Place, Junior, QOP 21
5 Lemasters, John Marshall, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 23
10 Thompson, Buckhannon-Upshur, Q1, Senior, QOP 9

Four out of the top 5 are in region 1. Their preseason ranking is based on how they beat up many people last season in the state tournament. Given that these guys get on the mat and stay on the mat, there is a high probability they will be top 5 to 8 to say the least. There is a much lower probability that incoming freshmen, transfers and qualifiers from other regions got so much better that they are going to erase all of these guys.

I am simply bringing awareness and doing so now so all readers can follow along as the season progresses. The talk of panic buttons and not having these conversations were not brought up by me.

It will be sad if a wrestler qualifies for the state tournament by going 0 and 2 in his region while another wrestler in region 1 stays home because he got 5th at 190. Do we want the best wrestlers in the state tournament?

That's not fair, you were holding that ranking back until after I made my comment (just kidding). At any rate it is only a "possible" 10th ranked guy not going, who theoretically is a 2 and out performer at states.

Preseason 5 AAA 215

REGION 1
3 Washington, Wheeling Park, Fifth Place, Junior, QOP 19
4 Pate, University, Sixth Place, Senior, QOP 21
9 Swauger, John Marshall, Shaft Level 2, Senior, QOP 18
13 Apanowicz, Fairmont Senior, Q, Sophomore, QOP 5
14 Travis, Morgantown, Shaft Level 3, Sophomore, QOP 4

REGION 2
2 Terrell Cofield, Martinsburg, Fourth Place, Junior, QOP 21
12 Damico, Musselman, Q, Senior, QOP 8
15 Barlow, Washington, Freshman Extraordinaire

REGION 3
5 Jones, Woodrow Wilson, Sixth Place, Senior, QOP 16
6 Beverly, George Washington, Sixth Place, Senior, QOP 16
7 Cottrell, Capital, Q1, Senior, QOP 7
10 Ellis, St. Albans, Q, Senior, QOP 13
11 Smith, Greenbrier East, Q, Sophomore, QOP 13

REGION 4
1 Arthur, Parkersburg South, Third Place, Senior, QOP 16
8 Lusher, Hurricane, Q1, Junior, QOP 5

Comments: Five of the preseason top 15 are in regions 1 and 3. Region 4 only has two. I will be glad when matches begin and the reset can happen.

[Bearhugger]

I don't think so, in terms of proving anything. I'm saying that in the end the determination for whether one should possibly be in the tournament will only be on how things work out in reality and not on theoretical assumptions based on somewhat inaccurate assessments made this early on. In other words, let's just look at what really happened previously instead of putting too much stock in what might happen. I get what you started talking about but don't feel like one should be pushing panic buttons about the information being posulated, which are not facts.

Preseason AAA 190 Region 1
REGION 1
1 Maynard, Wheeling Park, Runner Up, Senior
2 E. Knight, Bridgeport, Third Place, Sophomore, QOP 16
4 Hastings, University, Fourth Place, Junior, QOP 21
5 Lemasters, John Marshall, Blood Round, Senior, QOP 23
10 Thompson, Buckhannon-Upshur, Q1, Senior, QOP 9

Four out of the top 5 are in region 1. Their preseason ranking is based on how they beat up many people last season in the state tournament. Given that these guys get on the mat and stay on the mat, there is a high probability they will be top 5 to 8 to say the least. There is a much lower probability that incoming freshmen, transfers and qualifiers from other regions got so much better that they are going to erase all of these guys.

I am simply bringing awareness and doing so now so all readers can follow along as the season progresses. The talk of panic buttons and not having these conversations were not brought up by me.

It will be sad if a wrestler qualifies for the state tournament by going 0 and 2 in his region while another wrestler in region 1 stays home because he got 5th at 190. Do we want the best wrestlers in the state tournament?

That's not fair, you were holding that ranking back until after I made my comment (just kidding). At any rate it is only a "possible" 10th ranked guy not going, who theoretically is a 2 and out performer at states.

I have been thinking on this in terms of criteria. I think a wrestler should have to win at least one match to qualify for the state tournament. If he goes 0 and 2 in the region and still gets 4th, then he should go before the review board. I would rather see a 5th placer coming from AAA Region 1 190 qualify for state instead of a regional 4th placer that was 0 and 2 in his region.