wvmat.com

I'm not going to mention a team or even a specific region but one team in particular caught my attention today in that they all call injury time when they are losing. I wish the refs would ask the wrestler what specifically is wrong with them before they grant them a water break and breather. It has got worse over the years. Just an observation but a pathetic one.

Maybe their feelings were hurt

jofus wrote:Maybe their feelings were hurt

One wrestler used it too because his conditioning was poor. It's no big deal till they do it to your wrestler. An entire team does it. Sad, shame on you and your coaches...

Diamond wrote:I'm not going to mention a team or even a specific region but one team in particular caught my attention today in that they all call injury time when they are losing. I wish the refs would ask the wrestler what specifically is wrong with them before they grant them a water break and breather. It has got worse over the years. Just an observation but a pathetic one.

I know you don't want to out anybody or get your post removed but can you give me some insight into the situation? Curious about what happened!

Injury time is granted when the wrestler or coach requests it. We as officials must grant it. The rule states that. We are not doctors or trainers. We are not qualified or possess a degree saying that we know when a wrestler is hurt/sick or not. I do not want that hanging over my head should I try to deny injury time and the wrestler be injured or sick. I only have $1,000,000 insurance through the NFHS on me and that is if I follow the rules and a wrestler still gets injured. I can understand that through the eyes of the fans some wrestlers/coaches may appear to be abusing the rule. That may or not may be true. It is not my role in the sport to determine. Have I ever suspected a kid/coach of being unethical? Yes. But the rules say I must give them their in jury time.

One could argue having no energy is an injury. Maybe he is having trouble catching him breath and needs a moment

I agree that wiseone has to err on the side of caution, both in protection of wrestlers and to protect himself.

I also agree that some use this loophole as a way to get a rest. Getting a 2 minute injury timeout to put a bandaid on a scratch (yes I have seen it) or a coach taking the time to put a bandage, pre-wrap and tape around a wrestler's head because a pimple got the top scraped off and leaked a little blood while the wrestler sits on the mat, taking a breather and sucking down water or Gatorade is a blatant abuse of the rule.

I have witnessed refs actively telling coaches to "speed it up" which is an acknowledgement on their part that the rule is being abused. I see no issue with this when the "injury" has no life-threatening or significant injury aspects. If a wrestler was dropped on his head in an illegal slam or had his knee hyperextended that is one thing, when a wrestler is getting water, the sweat wiped off of him and is clearly taking a breather while the coach makes a big show of treating a minor issue, that is another.

If a ref has the authority to eject someone from the stands for being obnoxious, then he has the authority to make a judgment call about someone abusing the injury timeout rule. He also has the authority to tell staff to keep the water bottles and cool damp towels off of the mat while the "injury" is treated when it is obviously just a timeout ploy.

I wonder if they should eliminate time-outs in football also. There seems to be more defenses calling timeouts to stop the momentum of the offense, or for their players just to catch their wind. It just doesn't seem right. Should the referee not permit it and tell them sorry you weren't ready for this? I see it happen in basketball also to stop a 10-0 run for example. umhh... And remember there is not just one wrestler catching his breath during the timeout, the other benefits also.

brentsams wrote:I wonder if they should eliminate time-outs in football also. There seems to be more defenses calling timeouts to stop the momentum of the offense, or for their players just to catch their wind. It just doesn't seem right. Should the referee not permit it and tell them sorry you weren't ready for this? I see it happen in basketball also to stop a 10-0 run for example. umhh... And remember there is not just one wrestler catching his breath during the timeout, the other benefits also.

The point of wrestling is to gain and maintain control of your opponent. This can be done via superior, strength, speed, technique and yes cardio. So if an injury time out is fine for when you're gassed I guess it's good for when you're about to get turned, about to give up a takedown, etc? An injury time out is for an injury, Nothing more...

coach_williams wrote:
I also agree that some use this loophole as a way to get a rest. Getting a 2 minute injury timeout to put a bandaid on a scratch (yes I have seen it) or a coach taking the time to put a bandage, pre-wrap and tape around a wrestler's head because a pimple got the top scraped off and leaked a little blood while the wrestler sits on the mat, taking a breather and sucking down water or Gatorade is a blatant abuse of the rule.

If they were really abusing the system they would use far more than 2 minutes in the scenerio you described. The rule gives unlimited stoppages for a cumulative 5 minutes exclusive of clean up. What should the wrestlers be doing while being bandaged up?

Injury time = 1m30s
Recovery time = 2m
Blood time = 5m

ZZChooseTop wrote:

coach_williams wrote:
I also agree that some use this loophole as a way to get a rest. Getting a 2 minute injury timeout to put a bandaid on a scratch (yes I have seen it) or a coach taking the time to put a bandage, pre-wrap and tape around a wrestler's head because a pimple got the top scraped off and leaked a little blood while the wrestler sits on the mat, taking a breather and sucking down water or Gatorade is a blatant abuse of the rule.

If they were really abusing the system they would use far more than 2 minutes in the scenerio you described. The rule gives unlimited stoppages for a cumulative 5 minutes exclusive of clean up. What should the wrestlers be doing while being bandaged up?

I am speaking about the obvious situations. We have all seen it.

Diamond wrote:I'm not going to mention a team or even a specific region but one team in particular caught my attention today in that they all call injury time when they are losing. I wish the refs would ask the wrestler what specifically is wrong with them before they grant them a water break and breather. It has got worse over the years. Just an observation but a pathetic one.

Something that would put a stop to this is even if it is only the first self imposed injury time, the opposing wrestler gets choice of positions. For instance, if the bottom wrestler is gassed and calls for injury time, allow the top wrestler to have choice of position at the end of the other's injury time out. That would make them think twice.

Something that would put a stop to this is even if it is only the first self imposed injury time, the opposing wrestler gets choice of positions. For instance, if the bottom wrestler is gassed and calls for injury time, allow the top wrestler to have choice of position at the end of the other's injury time out. That would make them think twice.

NCAA wrestling uses that policy. Seems to be pretty effective because I rarely see injury time used in college matches.

Cummings wrote:

Something that would put a stop to this is even if it is only the first self imposed injury time, the opposing wrestler gets choice of positions. For instance, if the bottom wrestler is gassed and calls for injury time, allow the top wrestler to have choice of position at the end of the other's injury time out. That would make them think twice.

NCAA wrestling uses that policy. Seems to be pretty effective because I rarely see injury time used in college matches.

Excellent Solution!

mike.carman wrote:Something that would put a stop to this is even if it is only the first self imposed injury time, the opposing wrestler gets choice of positions. For instance, if the bottom wrestler is gassed and calls for injury time, allow the top wrestler to have choice of position at the end of the other's injury time out. That would make them think twice.

I like this!

Looks like someone realized the shoe fit.

Cummings wrote:

Something that would put a stop to this is even if it is only the first self imposed injury time, the opposing wrestler gets choice of positions. For instance, if the bottom wrestler is gassed and calls for injury time, allow the top wrestler to have choice of position at the end of the other's injury time out. That would make them think twice.

NCAA wrestling uses that policy. Seems to be pretty effective because I rarely see injury time used in college matches.

That's why I posted this.

I like that rule for the kid that fakes the injury or is out of gas, but I can see this being controversial cause you have to think about the kid that is really injured and sometimes wrestlers do flagrant moves to purposely hurt their opponent, this may give the dirty wrestler an advantage, I've seen this happen too often and unless ref sees it or calls it that would give unfair advantage.

I always thought they should resume from the position in which action stopped like jiu-jitsu or in mma. Its not fair when you are engaged in a pinning combination that there is a legal, sometimes consequence free way to get a restart after a water, couple minutes of rest and a cool off.

Diamond wrote:I always thought they should resume from the position in which action stopped like jiu-jitsu or in mma. Its not fair when you are engaged in a pinning combination that there is a legal, sometimes consequence free way to get a restart after a water, couple minutes of rest and a cool off.

This is a good point as well. Just last year in a conference championship I saw this exact scenario play out. Wrestler A had Wrestler B on his back and literally seconds from the pin when the ref spotted that Wrestler A had a nose bleed. The match was stopped and the potential pin was taken away. Instead of Wrestler B getting pinned, he got put in referee's starting position and went from a near-fall situation to a chance to score an escape point. Luckily the match ended with Wrestler A winning, although he won by points, not pin.

vortexfan wrote:I like that rule for the kid that fakes the injury or is out of gas, but I can see this being controversial cause you have to think about the kid that is really injured and sometimes wrestlers do flagrant moves to purposely hurt their opponent, this may give the dirty wrestler an advantage, I've seen this happen too often and unless ref sees it or calls it that would give unfair advantage.

Perhaps a modification to the rule where if the injury results in the ref awarding a flagrant penalty point he also has the option of awarding the choice of starting position to the injured wrestler. This would make those dirty wrestlers think twice about intentional injuries and also make those who voluntarily take injury timeout think twice as well.

vortexfan wrote:I like that rule for the kid that fakes the injury or is out of gas, but I can see this being controversial cause you have to think about the kid that is really injured and sometimes wrestlers do flagrant moves to purposely hurt their opponent, this may give the dirty wrestler an advantage, I've seen this happen too often and unless ref sees it or calls it that would give unfair advantage.

If the injury happens because of an illegal move or flagrant misconduct, then the positions remain the same and a penalty point is awarded. However, I have seen wrestlers take a dive in this scenario too. If a wrestler is hurt because of an illegal move and that wrestler can't continue, the injured wrestler wins. No rule for this is going to be perfect.

We can't prevent people from taking advantage of certain rules, but I can assure you, in the long run, it doesn't work for them.

Just keep in mind that the ref has to see it and call it too.

mike.carman wrote:

vortexfan wrote:I like that rule for the kid that fakes the injury or is out of gas, but I can see this being controversial cause you have to think about the kid that is really injured and sometimes wrestlers do flagrant moves to purposely hurt their opponent, this may give the dirty wrestler an advantage, I've seen this happen too often and unless ref sees it or calls it that would give unfair advantage.

If the injury happens because of an illegal move or flagrant misconduct, then the positions remain the same and a penalty point is awarded. However, I have seen wrestlers take a dive in this scenario too. If a wrestler is hurt because of an illegal move and that wrestler can't continue, the injured wrestler wins. No rule for this is going to be perfect.

We can't prevent people from taking advantage of certain rules, but I can assure you, in the long run, it doesn't work for them.

Just keep in mind that the ref has to see it and call it too.

Good points you make

Referees should not call people out by name.

coach_williams wrote:

Diamond wrote:I always thought they should resume from the position in which action stopped like jiu-jitsu or in mma. Its not fair when you are engaged in a pinning combination that there is a legal, sometimes consequence free way to get a restart after a water, couple minutes of rest and a cool off.

This is a good point as well. Just last year in a conference championship I saw this exact scenario play out. Wrestler A had Wrestler B on his back and literally seconds from the pin when the ref spotted that Wrestler A had a nose bleed. The match was stopped and the potential pin was taken away. Instead of Wrestler B getting pinned, he got put in referee's starting position and went from a near-fall situation to a chance to score an escape point. Luckily the match ended with Wrestler A winning, although he won by points, not pin.

I think the key detail here was the blood from his nose. Action is stopped when there is blood. Back in my day (before the AIDS scare), this didn't happen. I had a team mate once that was on his back while his nose was bleeding. The blood was running back in his nose and choking him. It was the only time he was pinned all season. He got up and blew blood all over the mat in anger. The ref picked up the community blood towel and wiped off the mat and resumed action. The towel was thrown over onto the scorer's table. No big deal back then.

Some argue that a timeout can be called in other sports so why not wrestling. Here is the huge difference though. Those timeouts are called on a dead ball situation. In wrestling a wrestler can do it in the middle of live action putting a halt to an impending bad situation. Imagine if the quarterback could call a TO when he is about to be sacked thus stopping a sack or a wide receiver calls TO just after a pass has been picked off and its being returned for a TD? That is what a wrestler can do during a match as it stands now. I'm not sure what the solution could be to remedy that.

Just my 2 cents

Bearhugger wrote:I think the key detail here was the blood from his nose. Action is stopped when there is blood. Back in my day (before the AIDS scare), this didn't happen. I had a team mate once that was on his back while his nose was bleeding. The blood was running back in his nose and choking him. It was the only time he was pinned all season. He got up and blew blood all over the mat in anger. The ref picked up the community blood towel and wiped off the mat and resumed action. The towel was thrown over onto the scorer's table. No big deal back then.

I understand why it happens/happened, I just don't necessarily see it as always justified. If a pin is mere seconds away then the competition should be allowed to continue to avoid injury timeouts dictating the game. Can you imagine the outcry if a receiver was about to score a TD and the ref blew the play dead because the DB that was about to tackle him had a bloody knuckle and the ref disallowed the TD? Or what if a basketball team had made a big comeback and was down by 1 point with 7 seconds left in the game and is in scoring range, then the ref noticed a player bleeding from where he got kicked in the shin, blows the play dead and then made the team go all the way back down to the other end of the court to inbound the ball virtually eliminating their chances of inbounding and getting back in scoring range before the clock expired?

mscoach4 wrote:Some argue that a timeout can be called in other sports so why not wrestling. Here is the huge difference though. Those timeouts are called on a dead ball situation. In wrestling a wrestler can do it in the middle of live action putting a halt to an impending bad situation. Imagine if the quarterback could call a TO when he is about to be sacked thus stopping a sack or a wide receiver calls TO just after a pass has been picked off and its being returned for a TD? That is what a wrestler can do during a match as it stands now. I'm not sure what the solution could be to remedy that.

Just my 2 cents

The remedy is what was already mentioned, but hasn't been implemented yet. If a wrestler takes a voluntary injury timeout then the ref awards a point to the other wrestler.

coach_williams wrote:

mscoach4 wrote:Some argue that a timeout can be called in other sports so why not wrestling. Here is the huge difference though. Those timeouts are called on a dead ball situation. In wrestling a wrestler can do it in the middle of live action putting a halt to an impending bad situation. Imagine if the quarterback could call a TO when he is about to be sacked thus stopping a sack or a wide receiver calls TO just after a pass has been picked off and its being returned for a TD? That is what a wrestler can do during a match as it stands now. I'm not sure what the solution could be to remedy that.

Just my 2 cents

The remedy is what was already mentioned, but hasn't been implemented yet. If a wrestler takes a voluntary injury timeout then the ref awards a point to the other wrestler.

I always liked the refs in youth that just signaled a pin when a kid on his back started throwing a fit. No need to go through the production. Get off the mat, your mommy is over there.