Studcradle wrote:technical violation wrote:There's a few things to look at here, I will give the top man some time to execute whatever move he is working for, but he has to show me he's advancing towards something. Now if both legs and or feet\knees of the bottom man are elevated due to the double legs , I peronally will call stalemate , it'd very hard for the bottom man to advance up when your legs are up of the mat in that scenario. In 2 rules clinics I went to , we went over this a good bit, and it's to give the stalemate and then if it proceeds again , then it's the referees judgement on stalling , every scenario is diffrent , personally I would warn both wrestlers after the stalemate to work out and through that position, but in the scenario Bearhugger gave i think I would be looking at a stall call very seriously the second go round .
Now for the comment about the potentially dangerous, and he will go, it is a pd situation. If the top wrestler is providing pressure down on a hip/leg on the same side he is turning only half of the bottom man can turn , and I've had it done to me and I can assure you it hurt like hell. But there is way to much pressure on the back in that case, I'm always watching to see if they release the leg wich they genrally do
Is your decision on whether to make the call influenced by:
1. Previous activity or inactivity or the wrestlers in the top bottom position? If the wrestlers were moving slow in top bottom the previous period and you called a stall will you call it faster this period? If you didn’t call the stall last period are you slower on the stall call this period?
2. You knowing the wrestler? I don’t mean this in a way to question your honesty. We have a referee shortage problem in WV. Most of the referees have relationships with coaches and even some wrestlers. If you know that a particular wrestler does something that many of your colleagues would consider stalling but you also know it’s part of his strategy are you inclined to call the stall slower than when officiating a wrestler you don’t know?
3.The coaches and crowd? Does the fist in the air and grumbling cause you to look at it closer?
4. The score? Score shouldn’t matter in determining who is stalling but it sure seems like the stall gets called against the guy in the lead unless they are close to a bonus and the losing guy is clearly trying to keep the loss at 7 points or 14 points.
5. Time remaining? Sure seems like passivity is ok in the first 20 seconds but the identical passivity will get a fist in the air in the final 20 seconds.
Studcradle Heres my thoughts and opinions
#1. I dont feel that i would call it faster or slower in either circumstance. If i have warned a wrestler for stalling, i feel i would be more apt to watch him more intentley for stalling. Im looking for certain criteria to be met for stalling. Now to elaborate more deeply. If i warned the top man in the second period for inactivity say after 1:20, i would still hit him for stalling for backing out in the first :15 seconds in the 3rd period. Now if he has been warned for stalling to top i will inform him that we need to work to score, and if the scenario plays out the same on a restart, then we are going to have another stall call. But no i dont feel it would be any slower or faster, once a wrestler has established and met criteria, and shows no signs of altering his action , he is going to be warned, regardless of wich period, or time. But im also looking for patterns, if the top wrestler shows some stalling tactics in the late 2nd period, and the period ends, and we have the same action in the 3rd im warning the top man. As i said im looking for habitual actions and criteria to present themselves.
#2. This is a very good question, and no i dont feel that your in any way questioning my honesty. This is a for lack of a better term double edged sword. This can have advantages and disadvantages. Ex. if ive seen a wreslter 12 times in a year and i know he takes a 3 or 4 step drop to set up a shot, it can help officiating that wrestler knowing this. Or if a wrestler like to develop certain moves on top that take time to develop, i may be apt to let him develop it a bit longer than normal. On a wrestler i dont know i wouldnt say that it would come slower, but as i said before i will let a wrestler work for something, but im looking for patterns to develop, but when you dont know a wrestler you not as edjucated as to how he wrestles, so they may be warned quicker than the ones i know, but as i said im looking for habit and criteria. But ive also had wreslters that ive officated many times that ive never hit for stalling that for whatever reason they may start backing out suddenly in wich they will be warned.
Alot of wrestlers and team have certain tendencies with certain moves and tatics. And you do learn those habits, which can aid in officiating, by positioning, letting them wrestle through situations etc.
#3. Ive gotten to a point in may carrer that the crowd and the coaches have no effect on how i call stalling. As i said im looking for certain things to be met, just becasue a coach or a parent in the stands feels its stalling it may not have in any way met any criteria for stalling, thats their opinions and stalling is a judgement call, and its my judgement , and im not going to call or not call something becasue a coach is simply wanting a call. Good example of this lets say 3rd period wrestler A takes 2 or 3 rapid shots in sucession, while wreslter B defends. The coach from A may say hes taken 3 shots , whats wrestler b doing, but then again in my judgement wrestler B has a legitimate right to defend against the shot and recover. And you hear alot of "whats the top man doing?" But im usally thinking in my mind, what the bottom man doing cause he is just laying there, i need to see more out of the bottom man to warrant that call.
#4. Score doesnt matter to me in awarding stalling calls. Now many times yes a loosing wrestler in a dual is trying not to give up those bonus points, Alot of times the guy in the lead will get hit cause hes trying to jsut hold on to a bonus situation instead of trying to score. But ever scenario is diffrent.
#5. On time, it doesnt matter to me what the time is. I will warn a wrestler in the first 30 seconds for backing out , jsut as fast as i will in the last 20 seconds. Now in many situations not all but many, in the 2nd/3rd period wrestlers become gassed and or are trying to hold a lead, and meet criteria for stalling due to this. I think this why fans tend to see so much stalling calls later in a match, also they tend to get into certain situations they typically dont in the 1st period.
In closing For the kids and Wise one are spot on in their comments, Chris is right coaches and wrestlers hope that at least the particular official will be consistent with their stalling calls, and we do our best to be consistent, And he is also right in that if we went by the book not many matches would make the 3rd period. As ray said many state organizations and coaches want stalling called a certain way, and many dont like it or perhaps they love it that way, personally i think it should be by the book with some common sense but thats just my 2 cents. Ray is also right on the 5 second rule, i hear coaches yelling it in all types of positions. The only place in the book where is says anything about 5 seconds is "If the top man holds the heel to the buttocks for more than 5 seconds, it is considered stalling" thats the only mention of 5 seconds in the book.
Stalling is a tough and judgemental call. Most often if u asked a 1000 ofiicals about a call you may get 789 diffrent answers. But i have learned alot from Chris and Ray, sometimes by taking polite criticism, sometimes by ears open and mouth shut, and sometimes by asking questions on scenarios. I have been blessed to have learned from both of these guys and am still learning from both of them, and feel blessed to be able to gain there knowledge and pick their brains from time to time, the state of wv has been very lucky to have both of them.
NOW THAT IS FUNNY, DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE.