AA/A ranked wrestlers per region

[Bearhug]

Last year Herbert Hoover (Region 3) and Braxton County (Region 2) finished ahead of both Oak Glen (Region 1) and Berkley Springs (Region 1) in the State Tournament. So what's your point? It goes in cycles. What's your solution to "evening out" the regions? There's no doubt that Region 1 is a tough region, but posting the dual scores against teams from other regions doesn't prove anything.

My point is Herbert Hoover qualifies more wrestles than teams in Region 1 due to their weaker region, therefore giving them an opportunity to score more points at the state tournament.

You only addressed one part of my response. What is the solution to your problem? I say "your problem" because you seem to be the one that has an issue with having to wrestle out of region 1. As Spencer Lee would say, "Excuses are for wusses."

The solution is to redraw the regions, this isn't just his problem, it's everyone in Region 1s problem. He's spot on though with his Herbert Hoover comparison

[aacoach160]

My point is Herbert Hoover qualifies more wrestles than teams in Region 1 due to their weaker region, therefore giving them an opportunity to score more points at the state tournament.

You only addressed one part of my response. What is the solution to your problem? I say "your problem" because you seem to be the one that has an issue with having to wrestle out of region 1. As Spencer Lee would say, "Excuses are for wusses."

The solution is to redraw the regions, this isn't just his problem, it's everyone in Region 1s problem. He's spot on though with his Herbert Hoover comparison

How would you redraw them? Who would you have in Regions 1-4?

[aacoach117]

No one said wrestlers from R2-4 weren't worthy? The post was pointing out how one region is more unbalanced than the other 3.

What was said was:

"Southern regions are weak as hell"
"good quality wrestlers" (in reference to R1 wrestlers)
"less deserving wrestlers" (in reference to non-R1 wrestlers)

This is all to imply that R1 wrestlers have a right or are more worthy than wrestlers from R2, R3 and R4. It has either been implied or outright stated that it isn't fair to some wrestlers (from R1). No, nobody said they were not worthy, but just about everything else but that has been said and all of it implies an opinion that they are less worthy.

[wre157]

Last year Herbert Hoover (Region 3) and Braxton County (Region 2) finished ahead of both Oak Glen (Region 1) and Berkley Springs (Region 1) in the State Tournament. So what's your point? It goes in cycles. What's your solution to "evening out" the regions? There's no doubt that Region 1 is a tough region, but posting the dual scores against teams from other regions doesn't prove anything.

My point is Herbert Hoover qualifies more wrestles than teams in Region 1 due to their weaker region, therefore giving them an opportunity to score more points at the state tournament.

You only addressed one part of my response. What is the solution to your problem? I say "your problem" because you seem to be the one that has an issue with having to wrestle out of region 1. As Spencer Lee would say, "Excuses are for wusses."

There’s a couple options as others have pointed out. Regions need redraw or possibly look at 2 regions and take the top 8 from each. I’m not the only one with an issue wrestling out of region 1. Many have expressed issues with the difficulties of qualifying out of Region 1. It’s not an excuse it’s simply a fact that Region 1 has higher qualify wrestlers. This is proven by having more ranked wrestlers, more state placers, and region 1 non-qualifiers beating qualifiers from other regions.

[aacoach160]

My point is Herbert Hoover qualifies more wrestles than teams in Region 1 due to their weaker region, therefore giving them an opportunity to score more points at the state tournament.

You only addressed one part of my response. What is the solution to your problem? I say "your problem" because you seem to be the one that has an issue with having to wrestle out of region 1. As Spencer Lee would say, "Excuses are for wusses."

There’s a couple options as others have pointed out. Regions need redraw or possibly look at 2 regions and take the top 8 from each. I’m not the only one with an issue wrestling out of region 1. Many have expressed issues with the difficulties of qualifying out of Region 1. It’s not an excuse it’s simply a fact that Region 1 has higher qualify wrestlers. This is proven by having more ranked wrestlers, more state placers, and region 1 non-qualifiers beating qualifiers from other regions.

How would you redraw them? Everyone wants to say "redraw the regions" but no one wants to give an example of how they should be redrawn to make them more "fair".

[aacoach117]

There’s a couple options as others have pointed out. Regions need redraw or possibly look at 2 regions and take the top 8 from each. I’m not the only one with an issue wrestling out of region 1. Many have expressed issues with the difficulties of qualifying out of Region 1. It’s not an excuse it’s simply a fact that Region 1 has higher qualify wrestlers. This is proven by having more ranked wrestlers, more state placers, and region 1 non-qualifiers beating qualifiers from other regions.

My 2 pennies is a lot of this goes back to culture and support systems. Northern schools can fill a team easier simply because being closer to OH and PA results in wrestling being more recognized as a valid sport. Along with this, administrators in northern counties support and promote the sport.

In contrast, southern teams have to travel farther to face OH or PA teams (and often are not allowed to by their AD) and often we do not have the support for our team that northern teams do. It is common for teams in the south to have less than 20 wrestlers, so by default there will be some qualifiers that are not as good as JV wrestlers up north. It won't help wrestling in the state any at all to re-draw regions or make special accommodations to ensure that R1 wrestlers make it to states instead of wrestlers from other regions.

[aacoach117]

How would you redraw them? Everyone wants to say "redraw the regions" but no one wants to give an example of how they should be redrawn to make them more "fair".

And that is the problem. The idea of some people is that "fair" means making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify. Nothing else. Instead of being focused on building the sport bigger and better in the state they are focused on preferential treatment.

[CowCatcher152]

How would you redraw them? Everyone wants to say "redraw the regions" but no one wants to give an example of how they should be redrawn to make them more "fair".

And that is the problem. The idea of some people is that "fair" means making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify. Nothing else. Instead of being focused on building the sport bigger and better in the state they are focused on preferential treatment.

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

[Doyablameme?]

This really puts it into perspective how good those Oak Glen teams were from 1997-2009. They had 12 Region I finalists in 2000.

Yes they were good for quite a while …But that being said,
South had 13 in regional finals very recently.

[CowCatcher152]

This really puts it into perspective how good those Oak Glen teams were from 1997-2009. They had 12 Region I finalists in 2000.

Yes they were good for quite a while …But that being said,
South had 13 in regional finals very recently.

Not taking anything away from South they are a great team but, come on... when there is at max 8 wrestlers per region in AAA, it's not that difficult.

[aacoach117]

How would you redraw them? Everyone wants to say "redraw the regions" but no one wants to give an example of how they should be redrawn to make them more "fair".

And that is the problem. The idea of some people is that "fair" means making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify. Nothing else. Instead of being focused on building the sport bigger and better in the state they are focused on preferential treatment.

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

[CowCatcher152]

And that is the problem. The idea of some people is that "fair" means making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify. Nothing else. Instead of being focused on building the sport bigger and better in the state they are focused on preferential treatment.

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Yeah, you just proved my point. The majority of R1 have at least 6 wrestlers in top 16. while some regions, have 1 in the top 16.

[wre157]

And that is the problem. The idea of some people is that "fair" means making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify. Nothing else. Instead of being focused on building the sport bigger and better in the state they are focused on preferential treatment.

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

[KSRefBP]

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

It's not about having the top 16 compete at the state tournament. The regional system is set up to have equal representation from each region.

[aacoach160]

Since everyone wants to use individual rankings as an indicator of why the regions need redrawn, here is the latest AA/A team rankings from Feb 10, 2023.

AA
1. Fairmont Senior (R1)
2. Point Pleasant (R4)
3. Oak Glen (R1)
4. Independence (R3)
5. Braxton County (R2)
6. Berkeley Springs (R1)
7. Herbert Hoover (R3)
8. Winfield (R4)
9. Sissonville (R4)
10. Lewis County (R2)
A
1. Greenbrier West (R3)
2. Tyler Consolidated (R1)
3. Ravenswood (R4)
4. Wahama (R4)
5. Cameron (R1)
6. Doddridge County (R2)
6. Wirt County (R4)
8. Williamstown (R4)
9. South Harrison (R2)
10. St. Marys (R1)

Region I teams: 6
Region II teams: 4
Region III teams: 3
Region IV teams: 7

Region IV has more AA/A ranked teams in the top 10 than Region I???

[CowCatcher152]

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

It's not about having the top 16 compete at the state tournament. The regional system is set up to have equal representation from each region.

Yep. I can tell you're are from Kanwha county lol. That may be the most idiotic statement on this thread.... not about top 16?!?!?! Who TH wants to see #1 vs. #58 in the first round of a state tournament lol, you make 0 sense.

[wre157]

Since everyone wants to use individual rankings as an indicator of why the regions need redrawn, here is the latest AA/A team rankings from Feb 10, 2023.

AA
1. Fairmont Senior (R1)
2. Point Pleasant (R4)
3. Oak Glen (R1)
4. Independence (R3)
5. Braxton County (R2)
6. Berkeley Springs (R1)
7. Herbert Hoover (R3)
8. Winfield (R4)
9. Sissonville (R4)
10. Lewis County (R2)
A
1. Greenbrier West (R3)
2. Tyler Consolidated (R1)
3. Ravenswood (R4)
4. Wahama (R4)
5. Cameron (R1)
6. Doddridge County (R2)
6. Wirt County (R4)
8. Williamstown (R4)
9. South Harrison (R2)
10. St. Marys (R1)

Region I teams: 6
Region II teams: 4
Region III teams: 3
Region IV teams: 7

Region IV has more AA/A ranked teams in the top 10 than Region I???

4 of the 7 are A schools. Where would they be ranked if they combined AA/A? Region 1 probably has 3 schools that can compete for a top 5 overall finish. Region 4 probably only has 1 school that can finish in the top 5 overall.

AA/A ranked wrestlers per region
Region 1: 49
Region 2: 31
Region 3: 22
Region 4: 33

Last years State placers in AA/A:
Region 1: 31
Region 2: 17
Region 3: 18
Region 4: 18

[KSRefBP]

Yep. I can tell you're are from Kanwha county lol. That may be the most idiotic statement on this thread.... not about top 16?!?!?! Who TH wants to see #1 vs. #58 in the first round of a state tournament lol, you make 0 sense.

Could really care less about where I'm from. And could really care less about what you want to see. If you don't understand what sectionals and regionals mean in sports.....then there is really no help for you. But you do you.

[aacoach117]

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

What defines the top 16?

Record? Nope. It has already been shown in this thread that wrestlers with a losing record can place over wrestlers with substantially better records.
Rankings? Nope. I guarantee you that this year ranked wrestlers will not be on the podium and unranked wrestlers will. Happens every year.
Head-to-head? Might be possible if a bunch of the "powerhouse" R1 teams actually came to the biggest tournament in the state (WSAZs) instead of going to some small tournament or staying home and wrestling the same teams they have been wrestling all year.

[wre157]

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

What defines the top 16?

Record? Nope. It has already been shown in this thread that wrestlers with a losing record can place over wrestlers with substantially better records.
Rankings? Nope. I guarantee you that this year ranked wrestlers will not be on the podium and unranked wrestlers will. Happens every year.
Head-to-head? Might be possible if a bunch of the "powerhouse" R1 teams actually came to the biggest tournament in the state (WSAZs) instead of going to some small tournament or staying home and wrestling the same teams they have been wrestling all year.

WSAZs is in Huntington. There’s a lot of travel and hotel cost with the tournament. Brooke classic is the same weekend and a much closer drive for some teams. Also, you saw two Region 1 “powerhouses” Fairmont Senior and Oak Glen head to head at the state duals. How’d that go for you!?

[CowCatcher152]

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

What defines the top 16?

Record? Nope. It has already been shown in this thread that wrestlers with a losing record can place over wrestlers with substantially better records.
Rankings? Nope. I guarantee you that this year ranked wrestlers will not be on the podium and unranked wrestlers will. Happens every year.
Head-to-head? Might be possible if a bunch of the "powerhouse" R1 teams actually came to the biggest tournament in the state (WSAZs) instead of going to some small tournament or staying home and wrestling the same teams they have been wrestling all year.

WSAZs is in Huntington. There’s a lot of travel and hotel cost with the tournament. Brooke classic is the same weekend and a much closer drive for some teams. Also, you saw two Region 1 “powerhouses” Fairmont Senior and Oak Glen head to head at the state duals. How’d that go for you!?

I couldn’t agree more wre157, I don’t believe they beat any of the R1 “powerhouses”. But, will “qualify” more than them. No reason for them to complain, I wouldn’t either. Lol

[Doyablameme?]

This really puts it into perspective how good those Oak Glen teams were from 1997-2009. They had 12 Region I finalists in 2000.

Yes they were good for quite a while …But that being said,
South had 13 in regional finals very recently.

Not taking anything away from South they are a great team but, come on... when there is at max 8 wrestlers per region in AAA, it's not that difficult.

It’s called a DYNASTY

[mscoach90]

I preferred DALLAS

[KDunbar]

This really puts it into perspective how good those Oak Glen teams were from 1997-2009. They had 12 Region I finalists in 2000.

Yes they were good for quite a while …But that being said,
South had 13 in regional finals very recently.

Not taking anything away from South they are a great team but, come on... when there is at max 8 wrestlers per region in AAA, it's not that difficult.

The response to the South reference could have been, "What has that got to do with the essential topic of this thread?". However, to make the ludicrous comment that it is not that difficult to have 13 of a teams 14 wrestlers in the regional finals in either AAA Region 1 or Region 4 in any year may certainly diminishes the value of one's other opinions expressed regarding their knowledge related to wrestling in WV.

[aacoach117]

I'd say the real problem isn't making sure more R1 wrestlers qualify but, making sure the actual top 16 in the state qualify.

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

And we are not going to. Ever. There is no way to guarantee that, nor should there be. Regionals is how you get to states. Either you place or you don't. No rule, exception or change should be made to make sure more wrestlers for one region get in instead of wrestlers from another region. That is called bias.

[aacoach117]

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

What defines the top 16?

Record? Nope. It has already been shown in this thread that wrestlers with a losing record can place over wrestlers with substantially better records.
Rankings? Nope. I guarantee you that this year ranked wrestlers will not be on the podium and unranked wrestlers will. Happens every year.
Head-to-head? Might be possible if a bunch of the "powerhouse" R1 teams actually came to the biggest tournament in the state (WSAZs) instead of going to some small tournament or staying home and wrestling the same teams they have been wrestling all year.

WSAZs is in Huntington. There’s a lot of travel and hotel cost with the tournament. Brooke classic is the same weekend and a much closer drive for some teams. Also, you saw two Region 1 “powerhouses” Fairmont Senior and Oak Glen head to head at the state duals. How’d that go for you!?

I coach a small middle school team with ZERO funding provided by our district. We go to WSAZs because of the effort put forth by parents and myself to raise the funds to pay for hotels. I took my team, paid for their hotel rooms and even took the team out for breakfast. Coach Archer said he turned down teams from as far away as Texas that wanted to attend. If you want to be there, you will find a way to be there. If you want an excuse to stay home, you will find an excuse to stay home.

What does the duals state champion even have to do with this? Literally nothing. It has nothing to do with any argument that a #5 regional placer has more of a right to be at states.

[Wrestler3726]

I think another way to make the regions fair is to every team from a county would go to a different region instead of being in the same one regions on average have about 2 schools per region in AA/A and some regions have 3-5 schools in them you could ship a couple of the schools to different regions since most of the teams that are in a region together wrestle each other a lot for example fairmont senior and east fairmont could’ve wrestled around 3-5 times this year depending on if each teams wrestlers met up in the tournament since the lower regions are weaker you could either keep them or move all the counties into certain regions you could ship every school into a different region or only do some schools from the regions to maybe balance it out not sure if it would be the greatest idea just a thought.

[wre157]

Yet this entire thread is based on complaints that R1 wrestlers are being left home while other wrestlers get to go.

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

And we are not going to. Ever. There is no way to guarantee that, nor should there be. Regionals is how you get to states. Either you place or you don't. No rule, exception or change should be made to make sure more wrestlers for one region get in instead of wrestlers from another region. That is called bias.

You’re right there’s no way to guarantee. However, realign could be done to even out the regions as best as possible.

[aacoach160]

Because Region 1 is the toughest region. So when Region 1 alternates are beating state qualifiers in other regions we do not have the top 16 wrestlers in a weight competing at the state tournament.

And we are not going to. Ever. There is no way to guarantee that, nor should there be. Regionals is how you get to states. Either you place or you don't. No rule, exception or change should be made to make sure more wrestlers for one region get in instead of wrestlers from another region. That is called bias.

You’re right there’s no way to guarantee. However, realign could be done to even out the regions as best as possible.

STILL waiting for someone to give me an example of how they should be realigned.....

[wre157]

What defines the top 16?

Record? Nope. It has already been shown in this thread that wrestlers with a losing record can place over wrestlers with substantially better records.
Rankings? Nope. I guarantee you that this year ranked wrestlers will not be on the podium and unranked wrestlers will. Happens every year.
Head-to-head? Might be possible if a bunch of the "powerhouse" R1 teams actually came to the biggest tournament in the state (WSAZs) instead of going to some small tournament or staying home and wrestling the same teams they have been wrestling all year.

WSAZs is in Huntington. There’s a lot of travel and hotel cost with the tournament. Brooke classic is the same weekend and a much closer drive for some teams. Also, you saw two Region 1 “powerhouses” Fairmont Senior and Oak Glen head to head at the state duals. How’d that go for you!?

I coach a small middle school team with ZERO funding provided by our district. We go to WSAZs because of the effort put forth by parents and myself to raise the funds to pay for hotels. I took my team, paid for their hotel rooms and even took the team out for breakfast. Coach Archer said he turned down teams from as far away as Texas that wanted to attend. If you want to be there, you will find a way to be there. If you want an excuse to stay home, you will find an excuse to stay home.

What does the duals state champion even have to do with this? Literally nothing. It has nothing to do with any argument that a #5 regional placer has more of a right to be at states.

My point was why attend WSAZs and spend the money when we can attend the Brooke Classic, which is a tough tournament, and save money.

You spoke about head to head competition. Therefore I gave an example of head to head between teams in different regions to show how Region 1 teams dominated region 2 and 3 teams but qualified less wrestlers. For an individual example, at 126 CJ Duty for Oak Glen pinned Anthony Currence from Braxton, however Currence is a state qualifier while Duty is not due to an easier region.

The whole argument isn’t that region 1 wrestlers are more deserving, it is simply to point out how a change is needed within the regional alignment for 2 reasons:
1) to allow the top 16 individuals (or as close to the top 16 as possible) in a weight class a chance to compete at the state tournament.
2) to give each team a fair chance at the state tournament.