EF vs EF

[TheBoxer]

I do not think I have ever read where a "JV wrestler" has actually come on here and said "I have become this happy, great successful person because I was a JV wrestler". In addition, nobody has come on here and said "in my day, I was behind a wrestler who finished in the top three at states. I whipped up on two of the state place winners in AA/A and I defeated two state place winners in AAA. If I could have competed, I would have placed too. However, my single mom couldn't make it work for me to transfer to another school. My wrestling career was clogged up because I was behind one of the best. The lesson I learned is you get held back because of your body weight and the zip code you live in".

Isn’t that exactly what he was saying? He was a JV wrestler behind a state champ and placewinner. Became a state champ the following year? And if I read correctly he is saying his life is better because of being JV? Maybe I misread it?

Maybe so. I read the words "Kyle Dake" and quit reading.

If you had you wouldn't have added the part about how you have never seen a JV wrestler actually come on here. Nor would you have have asked 5 questions related to this to build your argument. Those points all came after the point on Kyle Dake.

[KDunbar]

I do not think I have ever read where a "JV wrestler" has actually come on here and said "I have become this happy, great successful person because I was a JV wrestler". In addition, nobody has come on here and said "in my day, I was behind a wrestler who finished in the top three at states. I whipped up on two of the state place winners in AA/A and I defeated two state place winners in AAA. If I could have competed, I would have placed too. However, my single mom couldn't make it work for me to transfer to another school. My wrestling career was clogged up because I was behind one of the best. The lesson I learned is you get held back because of your body weight and the zip code you live in".

Isn’t that exactly what he was saying? He was a JV wrestler behind a state champ and placewinner. Became a state champ the following year? And if I read correctly he is saying his life is better because of being JV? Maybe I misread it?

Maybe so. I read the words "Kyle Dake" and quit reading.

Do you realize all the writing you do on here and people for some reason take the time to respond and when something is said to disagree with you you make the insulting statement "I read the words "Kyle Dake" and quit reading". Also, you shouldn't be intimidated by good spelling and sentence structure.

[KDunbar]

For the benefit of youth and high school wrestling as a whole nation wide (and not limit the benefit merely to WV) and to promote the sport locally to show all the locals just how good wrestlers can become with enough time and dedication to the sport, why don't we open up the post season regional or high school tournament to all bordering states JV wrestlers (KY, OH, PA MD, and VA), along with all those in WV, and we all would be more likely to see the best of the best and watch where the cream flows. Now that would truly be progressive and no one in WV could complain about some WV kid "just getting a trophy" unearned. For clarification purposes, which seems necessary on this forum, I'm being sarcastic.

Wrestling is filled with sarcasm. Go to your next meet. Take a legal pad. Make two columns. One column is for the coaches shaking their heads and/or putting their face in their hands when their wrestler gives up some points. The other column is for when the coach claps, yells encouragement and does/says anything to fire up their wrestler and keep/get him in the match. I assure you that by the end of the meet, you will have more tallies for the shaking heads.

Also, West Virginia wrestling needs to learn to solve some problems and/or take the lead without dragging in what other states do or do not do.

Maybe you need to go to the wrestling room where the real teaching takes place. Not sure what your statement or idea has to do with anything anyway. That could possibly deal with irony, but I don't see the sarcasm which would be painting all the coaches in a negative light. Wasn't talking about other states, just suggestions to make wrestling great again. Wait, forget that, I think it already is great.

[jofus]

In every sport, kids that are JV are JV because they aren't as good as the varsity kids. Actually, that probably isn't always true. IMHO, wrestling is better than other sports. Let's use basketball as an example...maybe there is a JV kid that is better than the varsity kid, but he's a freshman and the varsity kid is a senior, or the coach's nephew, or is a kiss up, or whatever...then the freshman may not even have a chance to beat the varsity kid out (that's not the case with all coaches obviously, but it happens a lot, I guarantee you).

But, in wrestling, if you're the same weight, then you have a chance of beating the varsity kid in a wrestle off (assuming the coach has wrestle offs, I'm not sure how all teams handle this), or, get to the finals in the tournament this weekend and beat him. That chance, to beat the varsity kid in front of you, one on one, doesn't exist in a lot of other sports. Heck, I know some varsity football coaches that don't even bother watching the JV teams play their games.

One thing, though, to play Devil's advocate...I was at a (smaller school, NAIA, div 3) college tournament this past weekend, and in it, if you had multiple wrestlers at the same weight, the highest scoring one was the one that counted for the team scores, the teams didn't have to pick their scoring wrestlers ahead of time, which I thought was a wonderful way to handle things.

[csmith11]

Bearhugger I would tell the kid from independence that he needs to work harder to be able to beat the kids ahead of him. The same way I tell my varsity kids to keep working harder to beat other kids we will see at States. So to answer your question I don't think the kid has worked hard enough to make varsity. Even tho I'm sure he has worked very hard. That's the beautiful thing about our sport is the hardships and life lessons it teaches. I think it's up to the team to make sure you have the best 14 man combo going to regionals if that means bumping kids up to make room for another kid to be at 106 or bumping kids up and down to get another stud 152 in. I don't remember everyone back in 2010 wishing Souths jv team that was top 4 in state should be able to compete in state. Also my brother is one of the examples of a kid that could've placed at States but happened to be on a nationally ranked team that had state champs or runner ups all up and down the lineup. The hardships and life lessons that wrestling taught him helped him do 6 years in the navy and now work his way up in the workplace.

[Bearhugger]

Isn’t that exactly what he was saying? He was a JV wrestler behind a state champ and placewinner. Became a state champ the following year? And if I read correctly he is saying his life is better because of being JV? Maybe I misread it?

Maybe so. I read the words "Kyle Dake" and quit reading.

Do you realize all the writing you do on here and people for some reason take the time to respond and when something is said to disagree with you you make the insulting statement "I read the words "Kyle Dake" and quit reading". Also, you shouldn't be intimidated by good spelling and sentence structure.

My policy is when somebody compares a high school wrestler in WV to a world class athlete, I move on. The best one is when people bring up Dave Shultz as an excuse why they do not need to encourage their wrestlers to weight train.

[Bearhugger]

In every sport, kids that are JV are JV because they aren't as good as the varsity kids. Actually, that probably isn't always true. IMHO, wrestling is better than other sports. Let's use basketball as an example...maybe there is a JV kid that is better than the varsity kid, but he's a freshman and the varsity kid is a senior, or the coach's nephew, or is a kiss up, or whatever...then the freshman may not even have a chance to beat the varsity kid out (that's not the case with all coaches obviously, but it happens a lot, I guarantee you).

But, in wrestling, if you're the same weight, then you have a chance of beating the varsity kid in a wrestle off (assuming the coach has wrestle offs, I'm not sure how all teams handle this), or, get to the finals in the tournament this weekend and beat him. That chance, to beat the varsity kid in front of you, one on one, doesn't exist in a lot of other sports. Heck, I know some varsity football coaches that don't even bother watching the JV teams play their games.

One thing, though, to play Devil's advocate...I was at a (smaller school, NAIA, div 3) college tournament this past weekend, and in it, if you had multiple wrestlers at the same weight, the highest scoring one was the one that counted for the team scores, the teams didn't have to pick their scoring wrestlers ahead of time, which I thought was a wonderful way to handle things.

Multiple wrestlers in the same weight class but only the highest scoring wrestler's points count toward the team score??? The person who came up with this idea is a genius. I bet nobody "laid down" for their team mate since it didn't matter.

[jofus]

There was at least one, maybe 2 weight classes with 2 kids from the same school in the finals, and a couple more in the 3rd and 5th place matches. They all seemed to be trying to me...at least there wasn't anyone that laid down on their back and let the "varsity" kid put a foot on them and pin them, like I have seen in high school.

[greencrush]

My policy is when somebody compares a high school wrestler in WV to a world class athlete, I move on. The best one is when people bring up Dave Shultz as an excuse why they do not need to encourage their wrestlers to weight train.

Stop trying to discredit his first hand experience in the matter by picking apart one miniscule statement, which had no impact on the overall point that he was trying to convey. It's childish and immature.
Either improve your debate skills, or quit making a "jerk" (being polite there) of yourself.
The man was JV, even though he was a state champion caliber wrestler. This experience benefitted him in life, and he does not regret it. In fact, he believes that it made him a better, stronger person.
That, is the point.

[Bearhugger]

My policy is when somebody compares a high school wrestler in WV to a world class athlete, I move on. The best one is when people bring up Dave Shultz as an excuse why they do not need to encourage their wrestlers to weight train.

Stop trying to discredit his first hand experience in the matter by picking apart one miniscule statement, which had no impact on the overall point that he was trying to convey. It's childish and immature.
Either improve your debate skills, or quit making a "jerk" (being polite there) of yourself.
The man was JV, even though he was a state champion caliber wrestler. This experience benefitted him in life, and he does not regret it. In fact, he believes that it made him a better, stronger person.
That, is the point.

I do not dispute that this given man's personal experience made him a stronger person. How is it working for the masses? For every JV that hangs in there and bounces back the next year, there are 3 to 10 that quit and never return. How is wrestling participation in 2017 compared to 1993?

Some folks take a longer time to learn the "life lessons" wrestling teaches. All the more reason to find ways to keep more kids involved in the sport as long as possible.

[greencrush]

My policy is when somebody compares a high school wrestler in WV to a world class athlete, I move on. The best one is when people bring up Dave Shultz as an excuse why they do not need to encourage their wrestlers to weight train.

Stop trying to discredit his first hand experience in the matter by picking apart one miniscule statement, which had no impact on the overall point that he was trying to convey. It's childish and immature.
Either improve your debate skills, or quit making a "jerk" (being polite there) of yourself.
The man was JV, even though he was a state champion caliber wrestler. This experience benefitted him in life, and he does not regret it. In fact, he believes that it made him a better, stronger person.
That, is the point.

I do not dispute that this given man's personal experience made him a stronger person. How is it working for the masses? For every JV that hangs in there and bounces back the next year, there are 3 to 10 that quit and never return. How is wrestling participation in 2017 compared to 1993?

Some folks take a longer time to learn the "life lessons" wrestling teaches. All the more reason to find ways to keep more kids involved in the sport as long as possible.

You're right, you didn't dispute it. Instead, you chose to ignore it and fortify a moot point, since you had no valid rebuttal.
Hang on... I thought your primary concern was being "fair" to JV wrestler who could place at the state tournament, but has the misfortune of being behind another wrestler who is also very good? Now you are shifting your argument. Those 3 to 10 (for every good JV wrestler) that you are talking about would not qualify for the state tournament anyways.

[WrestlingFan1]

Only way I could see it working would be to totally eliminate the team aspect of it and make open to everyone provided they made weight. No team score, enter as many wrestlers as you like.

[KDunbar]

Only way I could see it working would be to totally eliminate the team aspect of it and make open to everyone provided they made weight. No team score, enter as many wrestlers as you like.

There you go. Now that it is not a team championship, then why not do as I suggested above (sarcastically), why not open it up to all bordering states and make it even better and just eliminate the "State" from the tournament name.

[vortexfan]

Why not have team duals to determine team champions (rather than tournament style team champions) and open individual tourney for states individual champions including the JVers

[KDunbar]

Why not have team duals to determine team champions (rather than tournament style team champions) and open individual tourney for states individual champions including the JVers

I think a lot of people think this would be okay and even great for the fan. However, the reality is that it logistically isn't going to happen due to the factors of time and money. Eliminate those obstacles and the WVSSAC is the place to take the proposal.